Saturday, May 30, 2015

Psychopathy's Role In Modern Psychology.



How should we use the psychopathy label, and what about the diagnosis itself? Have we understood all there is to understand, and where do we put the line between 'psychopath' and 'not psychopath'? A Reader wrote an intelligent comment on this subject and I think it is worth more than another comment, so I reply in the form of the following article where I say what I think about the matter after posting the Reader's comment first.

It comes here:
..........

I would like your opinion on something. I'm having a bit of trouble with believing this whole 'psychopathy diagnosis'. Why is it that the world has taken on the notion of this diagnosis without trying to objectively evaluate it?
...
Personally I do believe there is a distinct personality type that is different to other personality types (ASPD,BPD etc.),which has some of the features of Psychopathy. However I don't think it is as black and white as some people suggest. I've met people in my life who have certain features of psychopathy, and I also wonder whether 'psychopathy' is subject to change."
As a psychologist in training who has read a lot of research into psychopathy, I feel the urge to comment on this.
Firstly, psychopathy *has* been objectively evaluated. In order for a personality trait to be considered valid, it must meet several criteria. First, measures of that trait have to succeed on a statistical test called the Cronbach's alpha, which measures the extent to which the items on that test correlate with each other (which implies that they measure the same underlying thing). Second, the trait has to be stable over time - not 100% stable, but significantly better than chance. And thirdly, it has to predict other variables in a way that makes sense with what the trait is supposed to mean. A number of research studies, using several different psychopathy measures (not just the PCL-R - in fact, it's one of the poorer tests), have found that the trait of psychopathy meets all three of those criteria.
However, it certainly is not black-and-white. No matter which test is used, the scores are always found to be continuously distributed, with most people earning very low scores, some getting slightly higher scores, some getting moderate scores, some high scores and some getting extremely high scores. Precisely where to draw the line is somewhat uncertain.
But just because there's a spectrum doesn't mean there isn't a purpose to defining a category of people with an extreme degree of a particular trait. Autism is on a similar kind of spectrum, but those who score extremely high on autistic traits show important differences from normal people and need to be managed differently (eg avoiding sensory overload, using direct and unambiguous communication, etc). Similarly, those who score extremely high on psychopathic traits need to be managed differently (eg motivating by rewards rather than punishment, explaining moral concepts in terms of self-interest, etc). And if we are trying to identify extreme high scorers, we need to use some sort of categories, even if that means picking an arbitrary dividing line.

..........

And now my reply (with quotes):
Personally I do believe there is a distinct personality type that is different to other personality types (ASPD,BPD etc.),which has some of the features of Psychopathy.
While it's true that psychopathy is a distinct condition in and of itself, it's also true that most if not all Cluster B conditions share some, but not all, of the same symptoms. But it's there as a distinct diagnosis because it has features that it is alone with. No other condition has an inherent absence of "efficient" functionality in the amygdala and dysfunctions in the frontal cortex which in combination leads to a strongly lowered or, in a few cases, complete absence - of certain core actions such as love and fear.

In all other cases we can observe the same absence, but for one it is never chronic, the person has known and understood mores, to mention an example, and there are usually other traits present which we don't see in psychopaths.

I can mention the feeling of emptiness which is so common in BPD, and the switching between a high level of emotion and a deep coldness and detachment.
As a psychologist in training who has read a lot of research into psychopathy, I feel the urge to comment on this.
Congratulations with this study. It's a big study if one really wants to be good at it.

I had a friend who has Asperger's Syndrome - I only stopped corresponding with her this last Autumn but otherwise knew her long back into my imprisonment where she first contacted me. She wanted to study and become a psychologist. But her immediate family was her only social network (apart from me), and they kept her from realizing this dream of hers. She was so afraid of loosing them that nothing I said could persuade her to go through with it (I haven't experienced before. that my logic, support and loyalty can't break through an unhealthy attachment to others, even family (in fact often family or family members), but in her case there was nothing I could do. And so I stopped taking contact this past Autumn.

The last time I spoke to her I informed her that my health has been declining rapidly due to the refusal to treat me that I've been receiving, and I told her that I could well be on my way to dying soon. But she hasn't cared enough to call or text me, and I just have to write it off as an experience that was good while it lasted, that I know I've helped her A LOT over the years, so not all was for nothing, I was just left out in the cold when I no longer could be the perfect gentleman who took her on cruises or flew her to New York to shop, or - later on - recycled the few really good restaurants in her capital.

So when talking about psychopathy traits in other Cluster B Disorders (or Conditions as I prefer to call them) - I don't know that Asperger's is anything other than an Autism spectrum diagnosis (on it's way out according to some) - but she definitely was a user of people. She would find a man, fall helplessly in love with him and flirt shamelessly until she had him, and then she'd grow bored and almost immediately start testing his boundaries. If he tolerated her promiscuity she lost all respect for him and teased him worse, if he didn't accept it she would feel abused and after some going forth and back free herself in favor of some other guy, and the cycle could start all over again. - I alone was the only one she didn't play these games with, but she showed me proudly how she did it with everybody else. - It all happened over the net, by the way, and she was diagnosed with Schizoid PD as well.

But imagine if her energy and talents could've been directed into a psychology study, what this might have changed - especially if she had a friend/mentor to help her with the coping emotional stuff.
However, it certainly is not black-and-white. No matter which test is used, the scores are always found to be continuously distributed, with most people earning very low scores, some getting slightly higher scores, some getting moderate scores, some high scores and some getting extremely high scores. Precisely where to draw the line is somewhat uncertain.
This is a very significant problem. In Scandinavia (<-- you will find a lot of very nice statements about this place in this Wiki article) f.ex., you can be labeled a psychopath if you score 18 on the PCL-R. Whether you can get the actual diagnosis with such a score I don't know, but in that area it matters little because it't the general opinion that counts and which you will be treated according to.

This is the negative side of psychopathy research. Western societies have for a long time had a tendency to limiting the mainstream code for what is normal.

But this is also the reason why it's so much more important that what cutting edge research has come to know as 'good psychopaths' speak up and get heard, and that will only happen if they're supported by those who understand the message. It is in the end a matter of human rights and the freedom of us all - the freedom to live and think and choose as we individually see fit, for as far as it doesn't hurt others.

That is not to say I believe you shouldn't be allowed to protect yourself - another thing that has been made fully official in Scandinavia: You don't have right to protect yourself or, if you're a woman, to protect your dignity (by law you are not aren't allowed to carry pepper sprays or even deodorants or anything else that can be used in self defense. Weapons are illegal and common citizens are not allowed to own or carry a weapon. Since more or less anything ca be used as a weapon, it up to the police to decide from situation to situation what is a weapon and what isn't. I'm told that a common screwdriver is very often considered a weapon if it helps getting a person convicted.

Oppositely you can get away with horrendous physical crimes without getting much more than a slap over the fingers. 2 years in prison for rape is no uncommon - though any sentence for rape IS uncommon. But the registration fever alone is a weapon that is used against people all of their lives (the blank slate after 10 years is a LIE and doesn't exist except in writing). It is things like these that we're all up against - though I'll admit that Scandinavia is so infected at this point that starting to try and do anything there is a dead dog.

If we are to change anything for the better of mankind we have to act fast and be consistent, and we need to do it from places where the law is working relatively well. San Francisco is such a place, to mention but one. I believe there are places in France and England too, and I know there are many places scattered over the US, where you have the protection of the law that enables you to do something constructive as long as you respect the laws.

And in respect to what I've said about variety and spectra, both here and elsewhere in my writings, I'd still say that Robert Hare isn't all wrong (even though I have changed my opinion of his school of thinking to some extent, but I can still recognize what I first thought when I read some of his texts and books). He has noticed how the system in the Western societies become in themselves psychopathic, and in my opinion there's no doubt about this. But it isn't the psychopaths who make all these decisions, it's the normal people. And they make such decisions because they don't understand psychopathy and are content with the boogeyman theory - something we don't have to understand. Something we can just smug and easy agree is horrendous and inhuman and should be put away forever or even killed, eliminated.
But just because there's a spectrum doesn't mean there isn't a purpose to defining a category of people with an extreme degree of a particular trait. Autism is on a similar kind of spectrum, but those who score extremely high on autistic traits show important differences from normal people and need to be managed differently (eg avoiding sensory overload, using direct and unambiguous communication, etc). Similarly, those who score extremely high on psychopathic traits need to be managed differently (eg motivating by rewards rather than punishment, explaining moral concepts in terms of self-interest, etc). And if we are trying to identify extreme high scorers, we need to use some sort of categories, even if that means picking an arbitrary dividing line.
I completely agree. This is what we hope to get out and make others understand. Once we can get to a point where authorities such as psychiatry, general healthcare, police and other coercive authorities, we can start talking to the congress (and what else it is called in other countries) about arranging some wider and easier available schooling and education about psychopathy and the role it can play in our society if we let it and if we know enough about it to let it.

As for the place and role of psychopathy in the modern diagnostic system of criteria, I still think it deserves a place, and I have to say that I am not much for arbitrarily decided lines or definitions when it comes to what is human and how it is human or less human.

I think we will need to come to terms with the fact that there are gray areas in everything, we can continue to draw lines and we can draw them precisely, but new ones will be called for because each new line will reveal a new gray area, and then that has to be evaluated until we can find a perfect position and form for a line for that. It is called evolution, and there's nothing wrong with it in and of itself.

The problem arrives when we start to think the cognitive process of the evaluation system is linear and final.

We can already see from examples dating back in our own present Christian Era history that reality is subject to change when the circumstances and way of thinking calls for it.

Lesss than 500 years ago we navigated the sea using a compass that was designed according to a system the had the Earth as the centrum of the universe. In other words, we navigated after a system that had the Earth sitting static and unmoving in the center while everything else, including the Sun, revolved around the Earth.

Today, when we look at the sextant and the compass of those days we can see it is ludicrous to base a global travelling system on the thesis that the Earth doesn't move and that everything revolves around us.

But it worked! And the Theory surrounding the Reality that was generally believed the be the final and indisputable version thereof at the time, worked. It worked until new thoughts came up that superseded the old world view because what it stood for, what it explained was supported by enough people, and it made sense!

What is just as thought provoking is that much the same unwillingness to accept the new paradigm back then went on as id happening now, in our own time about psychopathy and world economy and how and by whom the world is being ruled in general. - The only real difference is that this time we really better have to act fast! And that means Act! where ever you can, support anybody and everybody who leads the march in that direction which you want and wish to bear fruit - and do it loudly!

.........

If you haven't already, I would strongly encourage you all to read Kevin Dutton's and Andy McNab's The Psychopath's Guide to Success and Jon Ronson's The Psychopath Test.

62 comments:

rb said...

Good article. You "feel" enthusiastic about it. Very enjoyable.

Maybe that is the "feeling" people don't get from you in real life.
I once met a brilliant guy, under less sweet conditions. He was smart as they get, logically speaking, it was very interesting to talk with him. A little bit ADHD. It often happens, I think, when emotions become the theme of discussion. Desires, pleasures. Wishes and hopes. Ideals. "Hitting the gym", instead of talking. One of my better and oldest friends, is still like that, but leads a very ethical life though. Always have done that, which cannot be said about the other person I came in contact with. With that latter, the other brilliant and quite young guy back then, in a way, I felt I got nothing from him, about emotional issues. He was a "psychopath" by diagnosis I presume. He was for sure an ASPD. This talent however, he was a sort of a different type of ASPD, which I reckon you know a little more about. But in that moment, chatting about hopes and aspirations and love etc..., he became more the "avoidant" personality type.. A little bit like an empty shell. Disinterested in continuing our talk.
Was there never anything there ? I don't know. I think once there was. Personally I am pretty sure, despite what any professional wanna claim about that matter. It was a bit sad, but I still really enjoyed meta-philosophical conversations and opinions we talked about, shared some, disagreed on other. A brilliant mind, in his way.

This is an article from you, in which I get that feeling, that there still is something left in that tank of yours :) Thanks.

(Those drunk posts from me you asked about. Myself thinking out loudly. Nothing interesting in them. Just delete them. Basically me pointing out that all us humans, we are not that totally different to each other. Sometimes it is just better to stay focused on similarities, instead of alienation)

Zhawq said...

"Good article. You "feel" enthusiastic about it. Very enjoyable"

Why thanks, buddy.

In real life people know me as very engaging, highly energetic and passionate/enthusiastic. This too, at times, when I don't feel it myself.

What you say about that remark you gave... don't worry about it. My response was also just a situational reaction, I was in a low mood - pretty much am a lot, lately. In many ways that is because I can't exercise my energetic self in the situation I'm in now. So much anger. I'm angry that my life may be over soon, because I still have so much to do, I'm not finished by a long shot!

I love to take people places, in the mind and otherwise. '^L^,

Anonymous said...

you say your life may be over soon... are you that sick?

Still_Resigning said...

You may have started this blog for various reason, but you also enjoy it and find meaning in your cause. That you pass on to your readers, and we appreciate it. Is there really a lot more in life to ask for ?

Here your attention probably has to be on what sets you apart from neuro-typicals. For real life situations, similarities can be of more use. The difference really ain't that big. People wanna delude themselves. The end product normally makes them look better, than what reality and facts can support.

I had to try Dutton's test. I scored a whobbling 10 points. I even tried to be on the more ruthless side. I presume the question was refering to general attitude. I don't appreciate taking advantage of people. Neither manipulate. Then again, I have a person or two involuntarily in my life, at least earlier, for which I couldn't give a toss about. It is basically the golden rule. Most people I meet, have never done me wrong, so why should I wanna do them any wrong. Some have though. There is no moral philosophy anyone can support any evidence of being right or wrong about such a matter. It is utterly non sense.

I think we both get the feeling that a person like Dutton is more into the truth per se, and less into the feelgood scenario of science. We both appreciate scientists like him. A true psychologist, would have faked a crime, been put on death row for some months, and then talked with other inmates. Dr. Robert Hare is a joke when it comes to "das ding an Sich" as Kant put it, the search for the real deal. Real facts and how the world really goes..

I came over this test of emotional intelligence. Just score it as the default settings suggest, and you will max the scale. Then review the questions and ask yourself. "What is it really ? Everything in this test, aren't they all psychopathic trait. The perfect business psychopath".. Non-violent and non-criminal (only morally crimes, and they don't count in the good vs bad equation of normality) super-psychopath, would easily max this test. Hilarious..

http://www.mhhe.com/socscience/education/sadker/Sadker_EIQQ/sadker_eiqq.htm

Zhawq said...

Anon,

no I'm not that sick in that way. But I am hurting and I have no joy in life as it is and has been lately, and I can tell it may get worse.

If I can't live life as a relatively free person who can move freely, live where I want to live and make a living for myself, plus I have this wish to make a difference, more so than in the past where I just let things roll because it was fun the way it went... I cannot be someone else's victim, I can't live with that and just be in physical pain and physically unable to move and walk as I please. I cannot and I will not.

Where I'm at now the law doesn't protect me - that is, it does on paper, but in reality they can do what they please not only with me but with the population at large, it's just that with me they exercise that power.

Here any business can take a case against you to court without telling you about it, all they have to do is claim that they did tell you. And they will win because their side is all that's being heard and suddenly you have so much debt you can never pay it unless you can make money on your own, which I have lost the ability to do for the time being.

This means I may not even be able to renew my PC when this one goes down, and then, I think, it may be a good time to stop the circus. I mean, if I can do nothing for others and my own life is a pitiful hell, why be here at all?

But hey, things may still change. It's just that I've tried everything more or less. I don't quite know what to do next.

But don't get me wrong, I'm not the type to take my own life either though the thought has occurred a lot to me lately. It's just not my style. I'm probably too optimistic, or something, for I've always gotten through bad situations in the past.

Anonymous said...

I love to take people places in the mind and otherwise .

What do you mean by that ?

Anonymous said...

I mean think about it , we didn't have computers in the old days . People didn't kill themselves because of that. Use your own imagination and passion for getting whatever you want out of life and be your own innovator. Don't let society's standards of the current moment fool your mind into believing that nothing is possible because that type of thinking gets you no where. You need to practice radical acceptance "it is what it is" and accept your situation . You can't do anything about the past accept everything for what it is. Then close your eyes. Then allow your emotions and thoughts to peacefully enter your calm state of mind one at a time and effectively think to yourself why you're thinking that and what can you do about it. One at a time . If you fight your emotions then you will go into emotional cycles and drive yourself crazy. It's important to not get into habits of fighting off your emotions no matter how negative they are . They are what they are.

Retiring... said...

Did you listen to Tomas Sheridan podcast using Tony Blair as an example ? "That was me back then. Me today on the other hand.".

It takes time to prove a point. Very dependent on past behavior too, how long it does take. If I know your state, which I think I do, you will later, rather than sooner, get your knee fixed.
Gotta find the monk within you, relax instead of being restless, have a joint (cops don't care about that stuff any longer, despite what the law says about it :) ), and find some purposes. You got one here, blogging and thinking out loudly. Send a mail to Dutton about teaming up ?


Fuck the money. You don't need them anyway to have a somehow decent life. That aim is mostly within yourself. Only primer psychopaths with below 110 in IQ, are turned on by money. And you're not one of them Zhawk, right !

Anonymous said...

Great to see a fresh article every time I look atm Zhawq, good work.

I would like to offer a different view on this topic if I may.

The illusion of relative accuracy afforded by many to the defining of "personality traits" is at best a rough correlation between behaviours and pathology.

The whole situation effectively creates "pseudo-science" because it is a compromise between knowing that there is not the technology to measure the actual differences that are within the person, but wanting to be as objective and measurable as possible. The way funding generally works in capitalist societies is a need to empirically measure things for the purposes of auditing funding, without this, there is no funding for research and development. This fact alone has skewed psychology research more than any thing else, because the other schools of thought in psychology did not conform to this funding situation as well as cognitive behavioural therapy, and thus this goal and measurement focus style school of thought has come to dominate what we call psychology, even though it often has to create arbitrary measurements to for fill such criteria.

IN training, teaching, and all too often in practice, these 'traits' are used as the basis for deducting personality types and mental illnesses in conjunction with the criteria set out in the DSM-V and/or the ICD, as well as the various diagnostic tools available. This can be a good starting point to learn from, but a good therapist in practice is someone who personally understands the mechanics of the person they are dealing with, not a pawn with a check sheet and a list of prescriptions ready to go if you do fit a category.

A simple analogy for the situation is an experiment with a mix of people, psychopaths, sociopaths, BPD, depressives, dissociatives and typicals let say. The you set the scene and measure the behaviours exhibited. You may get a mix of varying types of people doing the same behaviours, individuals acting completely different to others of their type, and all manner of patterns, except one thing you will not see in replication of this experiment is all people of varying types behaving exactly the same. If you did it would be a statistical fluke. like rolling 6 6's in a row with dice. Behaviour and pathology are two different things and measuring via such is not measuring the personality or cognitive type via the true function and differences, it is at best a correlation of behaviours to the type intended and that is recognised beyond the criteria.

We are moving into a new era though, and technology is more up to the task of measuring the actual differences. Often things are known first and then have to be replicated in study. As the hard facts define clearer and clearer the truth of the matter, the outdated version of measuring via these behavioural symptoms is being replaced by brain scans, genetic tests, measuring of hormone levels and such technology.

Anonymous said...

continued..

Having spent thousands of hours now researching psychopathy, and being a psychopath myself, I have come to the point of really nailing down what these pathological differences actually are and then considering them in terms of our development. From my deductions there are three main things in our biological functioning that are different and present as a group of differences that is a psychopath essentially.

We have a unique brain type...this includes a fast twitch hunter brain type, and some slight differences in functioning in various parts like the connective cords between the prefrontal cortex and the amygdala. There will be be others unknown to me.

The other key defining feature is our emotionality- and not knowing whether it is the cause of, or a co-occurring feature, I have to list our lack of spontaneous reciprocal emotions for others as well separately. (Unhappy with the over simplification of lacking empathy...I have researched it down to the parts of the parcel and how they interact together, to find what was different with me and other psychopaths is compared to the norm, and this is the consistent difference I have found.)

Emotionally, we have a far reduced experience and range of emotions. Just like a volume control nob, with psychopaths turned down towards the bottom of the scale. It means our attachments and associations are not as strong also. When you consider the effect of this reduced emotionality through the development process, it explains why we never develop emotional connections of strength or duration with people, it explains why we never internalise social mores and standards, never feel the need to belong to the group as part of our identity. It explains just about everything. I have been through all psychopathic traits, including extended lists beyond the ones used in the PCL-R for example, and I understand the functioning behind each and everyone and can explain everything about psychopaths with this model very easily. The extrapolations of our emotional differences to the norm is psychopathy in a nutshell.

There may be other small things to add to this as time goes on and new discoveries are made...and I look forward to them. The days of these behavioural traits being the basis for measurement and the painfully biased and misdirected attempt that it is, will be over, and we can start talking facts with everyone on the same page.

These are indeed exciting times for psychopaths, and I notice an ever increasing tide of first hand knowledge coming from psychopaths themselves online. 6 months ago I had to teach everyone who came to me, and usually starting with basics, now they are turning up with information to trade and are peers in the discovery process. Hope you hang in there mate, Cheers, Jay.

Anonymous said...

«Only primer psychopaths with below 110 in IQ» Only? Are you serious? where did you read that?

Anonymous said...

Jay. Great post !

No of course I wasn't serious about that IQ number :) Trying to encourage Zhawk to behave as well as he is smart. He is smart enough, in IQ terms, to find some purpose on an intellectual basis. If he had, say, 70, there really would not be the same amount of alternatives, but those typical petty criminal things. Sex, drugs and jail.

BTW: I still think my "music test" does the trick..Exaggerating but:
The psychopath will feel nothing, react nothing or some times they do react, but not as expected. A bit more like ADHD or avoidant. They know they are suppose to "feel" something, but they just don't get it. They have learned that Mark Knophler is supposed to be a good guitarist, but they really don't get why. They cannot separate some of the finer details. The "vibe".

Am I onto something ? What say you about Paco de Lucia :)
What say you about Scandinavians in general ? Genetically speaking

Zhawq said...

Still_Resigning,

I'm writing an article instead of a reply. It turned out to be too big.

Zhawq said...

Anon,

you quote me: "I love to take people places in the mind and otherwise."

and ask:

"What do you mean by that ?"

A variety of things, actually. It can mean the same as if you're watching a really good movie or reading a great book that makes you feel you're actually experiencing what you see or read.

It can mean you are listening to something that gives you a new, world enhancing, and personally freeing, view and understanding of the world, the reality you live in.

Or it can mean simply that you're having a good, genuine time of fun that you will be able to look back on later in life and it still brings a smile on your face or laughter on your lips.

Do you see what I mean? '^L^,

Zhawq said...

Anon June 1, 2015 at 11:46 PM:

"I mean think about it , we didn't have computers in the old days . People didn't kill themselves because of that."

If they knew what they were "missing", I assure you, there would be people who killed themselves because of it. It has always been that way, and there are always people who kill themselves because the world us lacking something they think they can't live without.

"Use your own imagination and passion for getting whatever you want out of life and be your own innovator. Don't let society's standards of the current moment fool your mind into believing that nothing is possible because that type of thinking gets you no where. You need to practice radical acceptance "it is what it is" and accept your situation ."

Oh, I need to accept my situation and just take it like a good and obedient child, do I?

Look, I know you mean well, but I think I better let this one pass.

"You can't do anything about the past accept everything for what it is."

Whoever said anything about the past? I accept the past just fine. It's my future I worry about, and it there's to be one at all I have better worry fast.

"Then close your eyes. Then allow your emotions and thoughts to peacefully enter your calm state of mind one at a time and effectively think to yourself why you're thinking that and what can you do about it. One at a time ."

You clearly haven't heard me. But let me just tell you that I tried these things, I just don't have the ability to do them because....oh, why bother list it all again.

"If you fight your emotions then you will go into emotional cycles and drive yourself crazy."

That's how it feels, yes. But if I don't fight my emotions I'll end up killing someone in sheer frustrated anger, and I refuse to do that. For the time being I'll have to do the abusive stuff to myself - but only until I make it out of here and/or get the surgery I need so I can start functioning like a normal person again and not be the prisoner of my ADHD and other limitations.

"It's important to not get into habits of fighting off your emotions no matter how negative they are . They are what they are."

Read above, my friend.

Zhawq said...

Retiring...,

Thomas Sheridan is one of the most poisonous men you can find when it comes to the case of psychopathy. I know the man alright - not privately, but online is more than enough to tell me what he's about., And if not, there's always his book (forgot the name), he's probably written more since the first one became such a success, and auto-created mythological drivel you'll have to look long and hard to find.

My answer to your question is most like no. I've listened to the first 15 minutes of two of his podcasts, one where he was interviewed. A personal vendetta obviously started what has turned into a regular witch hunt - even though he told me he did NOT want to create a witch hunt. That was before I knew him better. Once I did I realized he'd been lying, for a witch hunt is exactly what he is about.

"It takes time to prove a point. Very dependent on past behavior too, how long it does take."

Very true. But this here place is different. I don't know how to make it understandable, but they label or box people when theyre born and there's nothing much anyone can do to change that label, it stays with you for life. They don't EVER delete old labels even if they admittedly are wrong. I met an old man, 72 years old. He was stopped for driving a bike (the kind without a motor) with light at night on a deserted small street. They told him they could see he'd doe the same thing when he was 14 years old, so they gave him a ticket.

The day before last I spoke to a doctor visiting from England. She agreed that I would have to get the knee fixed soon or it would be too late, it is tearing too hard on my overall health. After all it's been around 15 years that I have fought now.

But I'm going to try again. I'm in the process of getting it arranged. I deeply hope you're right that I will get it done. I do have a few people around me who believe in me, the problem is that they're all so authoritarian and become like def and dumb in the presence of a surgeon. This is what happened the other times, I was the only one speaking my case and I was even being ridiculed later for having done so by the very surgeon who should help me.

The greatest irony of all: This surgeon, who by the way runs the whole team. Here nobody can make personal decisions, they have to agree in groups, and not surprisingly a psychopath will easily take over such a group and that's exactly what has happened here.

I don't know what he got against me Maybe he figured me out, maybe he just saw what he was supposed to see - my journal is filled with lies, statements about illnesses I've never had and so on. It's a real mess. And then the thing that I suspect made them begin to deny me to begin with: I was accused of having stolen wallets from two patients and having given a drug addict an overdosis of some hard drug. Noe of it was true, and everybody but the ward's new leading surgeon knew I hadn't done it. That drug addict was lying to save his own skin. But the surgeon in question promptly send me home - after more than 4 months on that hospital and just about to get the surgery - I was told I could get the knee anywhere on any hospital, which is true. Only, nobody since has been willing to give me one.

Zhawq said...

Addition:

"Fuck the money. You don't need them anyway to have a somehow decent life."

You obviously don't live in these parts. ;)

Zhawq said...

Anon June 3, -15, 1:04 AM - Part 1:

"Great to see a fresh article every time I look atm Zhawq, good work."

Thank you. :)

"The illusion of relative accuracy afforded by many to the defining of "personality traits" is at best a rough correlation between behaviours and pathology."

So absolutely.

"The whole situation effectively creates "pseudo-science" because it is a compromise between knowing that there is not the technology to measure the actual differences that are within the person, but wanting to be as objective and measurable as possible. The way funding generally works in capitalist societies is a need to empirically measure things for the purposes of auditing funding, without this, there is no funding for research and development. This fact alone has skewed psychology research more than any thing else, because the other schools of thought in psychology did not conform to this funding situation as well as cognitive behavioural therapy, and thus this goal and measurement focus style school of thought has come to dominate what we call psychology, even though it often has to create arbitrary measurements to for fill such criteria."

You're right. And even so, you might find reason for further pondering when you see what the socialist model has created. Here were see even stricter, but just as pseudo scientific measurements and results that are curiously outdated. Where I live, for example, it is commonplace to think psychopathy is a reaction to counter low self esteem which the person constantly battle.

One sees how clinging to such a model hinders any true progress in the study, and definitely in the "treatment" of psychopaths who are seen as inherently ill. Basically psychopaths are viewed the same way as the population: As something to be regulated and, registered, distrusted and kept in tight tow and string. It's a rich society, so we can fake it as capitalists by doing what the big guys wants of us - outwardly, that is, and that way they'll allow us to abuse our population all we want inwardly.

"IN training, teaching, and all too often in practice, these 'traits' are used as the basis for deducting personality types and mental illnesses in conjunction with the criteria set out in the DSM-V and/or the ICD, as well as the various diagnostic tools available. This can be a good starting point to learn from, but a good therapist in practice is someone who personally understands the mechanics of the person they are dealing with, not a pawn with a check sheet and a list of prescriptions ready to go if you do fit a category."

How well put. Far too often, with the lack of a good teacher who understands what you have said here, the pawn procedure becomes far too often how things function. We see it everywhere, and this is why I see it as so important that more people with these things being part of their lives - or BEING their lives - speak up, write books, and make others understand why you can't solve anything by treating it as machinery where one pawn is no different than the next and all that matters is to meet the quota and make your boss or the state happy so that you can continue as always also next year and the year after that.

Zhawq said...

Anon June 3, -15, 1:04 AM - Part 2:

"A simple analogy for the situation is an experiment with a mix of people, psychopaths, sociopaths, BPD, depressives, dissociatives and typicals let say. The you set the scene and measure the behaviours exhibited. You may get a mix of varying types of people doing the same behaviours, individuals acting completely different to others of their type, and all manner of patterns, except one thing you will not see in replication of this experiment is all people of varying types behaving exactly the same. If you did it would be a statistical fluke. like rolling 6 6's in a row with dice."

What an interesting idea. But as you say, it's highly unlikely to ever happen.

"Behaviour and pathology are two different things and measuring via such is not measuring the personality or cognitive type via the true function and differences, it is at best a correlation of behaviours to the type intended and that is recognised beyond the criteria."

Here you're getting to the central point of the matter: The type intended, and how much money do they not put into arriving at that result every year. The same goes when a new the latest fad is the goal to get everyone to adhere to.

"We are moving into a new era though, and technology is more up to the task of measuring the actual differences. Often things are known first and then have to be replicated in study. As the hard facts define clearer and clearer the truth of the matter, the outdated version of measuring via these behavioural symptoms is being replaced by brain scans, genetic tests, measuring of hormone levels and such technology."

Yes, in spite of the DSM-V and the voices that cry "Wolf!" things are happening. And they will happen eventually even if I don't get to participate (though I already have in a minor way via the research program I've been part of), but I still have so much to give and it is still without a doubt that voices from my end of the psychopathy scale are lacking. And getting them involved will help changes come a little faster.

Thank you for a very well written and on spot deduction of the current situation.

WHat you write and how you write it could have been written by someone working - or studying - in the field of abnormal psychology or maybe psychopathy particularly. But I can see from the following part of your comment that you too are a psychopath, and it isn't uncommon for us to seamlessly and automatically take on the style of use of terms and phrases by those that we at times emulate (some believe that is all we do) or that we learn from. So you could've been one of the plenty of Readers from this field of work, research, teaching and otherwise. But by very far most of these choose to either remain silent, sending me a short line and some links or only contact me per email if they choose to correspond with me.

This shows a lot of the fear of contamination that still prevails among people working with "patients" - or the study of understanding theories about people - such as myself. And that agains speaks volumes about the gap that persists between our groups. Furthermore, it isn't even just us psychopaths, they do it with the mentally ill as well.

You cannot work with a person, or learn about him personally - which is necessary if you want to make a difference, no matter what his diagnosis or actual condition is.

But on to part 2...

Your comment is a refreshing change. Thanks again.

Zhawq said...

Anon (Jay) June 3. -15 - 1:05 AM - Part 2:

"Having spent thousands of hours now researching psychopathy, and being a psychopath myself, I have come to the point of really nailing down what these pathological differences actually are and then considering them in terms of our development."

A question here: Using the words "I've spent thousands of hours researching psychopathy"...

In terms of actual time, how long would you say you have spend on researching psychopathy and thus your own inner workings and that of others who are normal? How many months, weeks, or even years, have you spent?

Zhawq said...

Jay - Part 3:

"(I imagine you have spend only several months, and this is because you, once you got sense of this being something that was about you specifically and that studying it could chance your life and your opportunities big time, you threw everything aside and spend more or less all your time doing intensive research, sometimes many 20 hours in a row on one day. It this a correct deduction of you as a highly energetic person who would do exactly that, or am I totally off the mark?)"

Well I must say that yes, you are completely off the mark.
I have always, as long as I can remember, and definitely since I could read and write and knew there was something called psychology and psychiatry, studied these disciplines.

Psychopathy specifically - it may sound strange until I explain - I early became interested in this and read my first book on the subject when I was 16. The reason, or I should say reasons, that I never drew the line between myself and psychopathy is that what I read what not only outdated, it was also molded into a distorted version in order to fit the views of the community in which I grew up (I can tell you this much: Apart from using modern technology there is a lot about my childhood community that looks like the Amish, heir religion is the state instead of the Christian god, but otherwise there isn't much difference).

Add to this that at the time I hadn't been diagnosed with psychopathy yet and like most psychopaths I didn't believe I was as bad as they said and I could recognize myself in some of the things that I read, but I believed it to be traits of honor. I wrote it off as the professionals who didn't understand people like me, not the other way around.

In terms of studying psychopathy from the basis of recognizing that I might be one myself I have studied approximately 3,5 years.

So yes, my dear fellow, I've studied psychopathy as long as you have at least, but the study goes on, and if you are starting to believe you know it all because you have understood some central aspects, you're sorely mistaken. That's all I can say. -- I recognize myself a loot in you, and I warn you that you may be about the make some of the same mistakes that I have made when I was younger.

Zhawq said...

Jay - Part 4:

(Apparently my reply was still too large)
.........

It's in our nature to develop a certain arrogance about our assets (such as a nice IQ), but we have the power to not let this twist our perception of the reality we see in others and around us if we're alert to the tendency being present in us to begin with.


I agree with your lack of contentness with how the majority of easily recognizable psychopaths interact with each other, and you can thank society's alienation of our whole minority for this. Those often dysfunct psychopaths we see behaving inadequately towards each other are often not even aware that they themselves and the others are psychopaths, nor do they have much, if any, knowledge about psychopathy as such - particularly not psychopathy as viewed in the light of the latest new paradigm. And how could they? They spend most of their waking hours seeking ways and easy means of gratifications because that's what they've grown up to believe is all that the world consists o.

"When you consider the effect of this reduced emotionality through the development process, it explains why we never develop emotional connections of strength or duration with people, it explains why we never internalise social mores and standards, never feel the need to belong to the group as part of our identity. It explains just about everything.

Are you saying we can change by (a strict) implementation of some kind of therapy? This might work for people with ASPD - meaning people who's psychopathy like traits are the result of nurture (you have heard of the debate about nature vs nurture et vice versa, right?)

"The extrapolations of our emotional differences to the norm is psychopathy in a nutshell."

Yes, but we already know this, Jay, it is not new to anybody, as well as what they stated before this last sentence. I have been there too. I think it's necessary to go there because you can't amputate the majority of the human aspect from what it means to be a psychopath, and that - to a large extent - is what is being done with the PCL-R. Hare knows this, it's the very reason why he stresses that it is only a tool and should be backed up with a lot of background-, history-, psychological-, etc. research

"There may be other small things to add to this as time goes on and new discoveries are made...and I look forward to them. The days of these behavioural traits being the basis for measurement and the painfully biased and misdirected attempt that it is, will be over, and we can start talking facts with everyone on the same page."

I agree, and I can't wait either. But make no mistake, there will be a lot to add, and a lot that I don't know about yet - that none of us know about yet. But there will come that time when we, each of us, will do new discoveries that we then can share, exchange and deduct yet new discoveries from.

The future of psychopath research can be a very exciting ride... if we let it.

"These are indeed exciting times for psychopaths, and I notice an ever increasing tide of first hand knowledge coming from psychopaths themselves online. 6 months ago I had to teach everyone who came to me, and usually starting with basics, now they are turning up with information to trade and are peers in the discovery process."

Yes, I see some of the same.

"Hope you hang in there mate, Cheers,

Jay.


Thank you, pal. -- I'll not say too much at this point, but there may be light in the horizon, and at any rate, I will not be the one to give in (just need to let off stream every now and then, heh!)... '^L^,

Zhawq said...

Comment Engine Issues...

First I split it in two equal sizes, and the first half was accepted.

The second half was still too big, so I parted that in half too.

But guess what, the third part was ALSO too big and I had to part that in half as well.

Something doesn't make sense here.

'^L^,

Zhawq said...

Anon June 3, 2015 at 7:48 AM,

funny as it may sound, many - though far from all - psychopaths can feel something from listening to music. I am one of those who can. But I know what I feel is different from what normal people feel.

I have discussed this elsewhere, so I'll not go too deep into it again, just believe me when I say that some of the times I felt most alive in my time was when I was on stage, performing as the lead singer.

I can't sing anymore, so one of my other life long 'hobbies' that also give me some emotional satisfaction - not to mention the fundamental ability to function, emotionally, cognitively and physically (all three!), is by working out, preferably martial arts.

These two things, and to a smaller extent playing with animals when I was very little (this is according to what I've been told by my step mom, though I remember walking a neighbor's dog - I wasn't allowed to have one myself (of course I wasn't!) - and I liked that dog too. But as I grew up my ability to feel anything for animals subsided.

So I've really just had two things that made my life truly worth living: The ability to sing well and the ability to move physically and thus keep myself sane.

Funny that this is exactly how ADHD'ers expresses their need to be able to move. They also say: "When others sit quietly to meditate, people with ADHD walk to meditate. With psychopaths it is even more necessary if the psychopath has the ADHD-like aspect.

The authorities around here knows about this - they didn't until I came around, but I made sure to inform them though they've refused to check the places on the web I could refer to. Especially if they're international, because "we know better than everybody else!", especially USA is held up as a scarecrow example: "Think if we were to be like the US!??? Oh, horror!! People can do as they please!! Can you believe such an abomination??"... etc.

So yeah, they know, but they appear indifferent. Attempts to talk to them from Amnesty International is met with closed phones and a rare "it's an internal matter, he's under our law and care and we know what we're doing, now, have a nice day!".

Have a nice day, guys. I'll be back before you know it. '^L^,

Anonymous said...

Part 1

Hands up. I love a lot of what you write and how you see things. And yes, there is a lot in that part of how you consider the society. But what can "it" do ? It has taken away thinking (not sure it ever existed among most people anyway) and brought up it's population to become grown up kids, in many a way.
In addition, "the guardians" of society, have come to consider their own population psychopaths by nature, sack them together and make rules and obligations. Like parents do. It is quite black n white, but it is also correct to some degree.

So what do we get and why do we get it ?
What we for sure get, is a paranoid population. Every stranger is a danger. One has to introduce oneself very cautiously. A person like maybe you, should probably not be yourself, but dumb yourself down. One may just start to speak loudly about nothing, and still some person will probably be offended and scared. Another "victim". Run to government for help (yeah it does sound very communistic, yet we always wonder at school how DDR could become DDR and even persist. Fellow classmates: but why didn't the people say something. Do something ???? ). Which leads me onto another thing.

Apart from some regions, intensity is considered bad behavior. Why is that ? How did they become classically conditioned on these matter ? Intensity is good. It is emotions. Emotions are good, most of them. The rest of world seems to be of similar opinions. If I don't feel, then why should I care ?
Immigrants, from far away places, they talk louder, they laugh more. (They also do a lot more shit though. With the good, comes often some bad).. And what is really the true purpose of this immigration wave if intensity is so bad ? Is there some hidden info and agenda in that matter ? (Very probably )

So where does it stem from, the fear ?
I have semi-concluded that there is a lot of shit going on within the families up here. Growing up in a ghetto I have seen a lot. And the golden rule for neighbors are that they shouldn't stick their nose into private matters. And they don't . They don't care that much. Not worth the effort. Let the government fix it..
And the government, up until recently, had basically ignored it a lot. Each father goes dutifully to work for the system each and every fucking day, and as a bonus he seems to be allowed to treat his own family as his own Kingdom..

And why is that again ? We shall never know. What I do know, is that from a machiavellian viewpoint, it is a perfect tool to become the real parent for its population. And you know, kids normally obey their parents. They do as they are told. Those who don't, well we got DSM and jail for those.. Let the little children come running to me. How ? Why not just ignore their obvious problems so that they come voluntarily running to me, when they have had enough. I shall help, and their gratitude will make me their "new king and ruler". :)
(Putting it black n white here. The reality is a lot more nuanced. And it is continously improving. At least on paper)

Anonymous said...

Part 2


Is it bad ? I don't know. I don't even have a fucking clue if it is on purpose. I basically think that there is just something in human nature, that sort of acknowledges what is working well and what isn't. Never change a winning team.
Government is about ruling. Isn't it just another way of achieving those same purposes/goals ? A little psychopathic in its nature, but so is also the need to control others. So is also mankind. Fear or be feared. Typical childhood mantra.

It could have been a lot worse though. Most modern societies use similar ideas and mind control. The secularized ones even allow their population to behave rather immorally within their given framework and boundaries. But if one trespasses those boundaries, it does become an attack on the "institution", or God. God/Allah is just another name for the same... And that they care a lot about. Then they will not be just observing from the side line any longer. There are major crimes, and minor. A parent abusing the family, has till recently, been more defined as a minor crime. The same crime in behavior, but directed towards "the system", has for long been a major crime. Murderer, that is way out of their framework, you see mate :).

What I don't really understand.. It puzzles me.. That is how a smart guy like you either didn't see the simplicity of this shit or just couldn't use a bit of "radical acceptance" as another reader suggested. It is what it is. Got any better suggestions ? I frankly don't.
I do know though, that even as I a fucking 10 year old and very abused kid, I noticed how some things truly work. I looked beyond the spoken word. I had to learn that style of perception, because my mother always expected me to read her mind. And if I didn't, oh my god..Lol to "motherly instincts".

Didn't you see it ? It still puzzles me... Did you think you had truly human rights, after trespassing ? Did you believe the newspaper ? Did you consider yourself "larger than the system" ? C'mon.. You're way too smart for that. That would be rather arrogant, some would argue.

I've noticed seem knee issues myself today. Shit. Contagious stuff.


I think that may be the difference. Give it a thought. I think it may be the difference between a money hungry overpaid and overidolized CEO and Zhawk. "Radical Acceptance".

I had another though. People often suggest: You gotta believe in Jesus..
What does that really mean ?
"You gotta accept your position and hope for the better in the future"..
May very well be so.. (Many though, they just say it so, because they are deluded, and it sounds good, correct and wise. But some say it in a way that one just know they are saying truly something else. That it isn't really about the fairy tale)

Anonymous said...

A better explanation that is less condemning
Most people tell you to have faith, as an expression for sympathy. You just gotta appreciate that they care as good as they can. That they will never truly understand what you have been through and def. what you have done. Yet they say so, because they do know you a little and do appreciate you. It is nice. Not to be taken to literally. Should try it one day. You have it in you somewhere :)

Anonymous said...

Hey Zhawq.

Was a little lost on one part of your reply there, the - Jay - Part 3:...seemed like you asked me a question in part 2/2 of the reply then answered it like I had asked it...wires crossed there big time somehow, anyway..

In terms of actual time studying psychopathy, which has turned more to writing lately, I mean that for the last 10 years it was my greatest intellectual interest. for about 6 of those years probably 20-30 hours a week, and the last 4 years it has been my life with seriously over 8 hours on average everyday spent on the subject in some capacity, reading, researching or writing/counselling others. I have made psychopathy my life. It will make me money very shortly, right after this pesky prison sentence. Even though intellectually I knew I fit the type, it wasn't until reading your blog 4 years ago that emotionally it clicked and sunk in. Finally my emotional understanding could be on par with my intellectual, of course after experiencing the likeness and sameness of your first hand perspective(of course also the reason in reverse that we don't experience this form of empathic emotional recognition in non psychopaths). This has been the key to me passing this same emotional recognition onto other too.

I am glad you got my answer, there are many psychopaths who can talk the talk, but few who know the playing field also.

You asked- Are you saying we can change by (a strict) implementation of some kind of therapy?

Well we are not stone obviously, of course we can change in certain ways, but that was certainly not my insinuation. We will not be be changed from being psychopaths by a form of strict therapy....absolutely not...what I am saying is all this talk about what psychopaths are, the mystery....it is pretty simply business really. Understanding the emotional difference we are born with, and then with that basis of understanding, considering how the rest of our development plays out as human beings(childhood development in particular, of course), is all the explanation that could ever be required really. Once this is understood, anything else on the topic of psychopathy is small fries, peripheral information. Grading behaviour in terms of arbitrary 'traits', predicting our rate of criminal recidivism, our desires or capacity for particulars in life, in fact attempts at understanding anything about psychopaths and psychopathy basically, is either missing the point or obviously doesn't understand this core feature, the basics, and its ramifications. Think every definition that tries to encompass and explain psychopaths and their behaviour. They need to go back to the ABC's.

I have read interesting neurological research that I was able to par some thing I felt in my head and some differences in my memory, words and emotional meaning. I was taught by a researcher about our sexual hormone balance, and it finally explained things about myself and a lot of anecdotal evidence from others. Learning that impulsivity has a gene and it was not learning, but rather a short impulse fuse from genetics, as to why this was more pronounced in me than most people. But to understand everything else, knowing the fairly simple emotional differences and some basics on psychology and child hood development, is all it really takes. You say that there will be much more, do you mean filling in the gaps of current knowledge or do you know or think of some new information that should be available in the near future?

continued....

Anonymous said...

You say it is known and not new to anybody, and I understand what you mean by that, yet everyone is off chasing red herrings, leading experts still use tools because they don't understand, it is hard to find anything like a decent book that explains the basics well, if at all, and the whole situation of supposed understanding looks like a puddle of confusion that can take thousands of hours of study for a highly intelligent psychopath to sift through and see how the basics apply to themselves. So I say the evidence points to otherwise...and I hope my book fills this gaping void and makes me rich lol.


Some researchers and therapists may wish to investigate strictly controlling a psychopaths environment in an attempt to use such an understanding of our emotional differences and childhood development to create a healed or cured psychopath, but they would be ignoring a growing body of evidence that says such an assumption that psychopath means criminal,broken, ill or bad or is in anyway ethical to discriminate along such lines, is wrong. They can't even diagnose psychopaths under 18 at the moment, and the tide is increasing in our favour in terms of human rights and soft fluffy protection, so I do not see that as a threat, not even viable imo.


Zhawq I have a request, but I am only around for about another week, so time is of the essence if you get to it. There is something you would know, that I don't and although I may soon learn where I am going, I still wonder if you could tell me. The most psychopathic individuals out continued....
there, pure psychopaths or however you want to name them. Could you describe briefly the extremeness of experience for them in terms of basic emotional difference. I have dealt with a shit ton of psychopaths and sociopaths over the years, but I wonder how extreme is the most extreme psychopaths emotionally. I think you and I are pretty similar, and it is rare for me to meet another psychopath before that I just know is more than me, but it has happened twice in my life...one just had less fear than me, but perhaps conditioning effects this, and it was the types of situations rather than level of fear. He actually made me wonder how he had lived this long though. Another,to me, seemed like there was not the tiniest bit of normal in him. He was so psychopathic he seemed like a pitbull in with a bunch of chahuahuas...I am sure it would make peoples interest and enthralment have an orgasm if you wrote of such experiences.

Always a pleasure, cheers, Jay

Zhawq said...

Anon June 4. -15, 2:35 AM - Part 1(a):

"Hands up. I love a lot of what you write and how you see things"

Great, thank you.

The majority of people in society never did do much thinking, that's true, and there's a reason for that. If everybody were thinkers we would be in trouble. We need the majority to be mainly content with working and do a good job and live normal lives, love their wives and bring up their ids well.

But as it is today they don't get the quiet to do that. They're steadily being paced to think their individuals who can reach the sky if they want to, and this is due to bad ruling that such impossible ideas fill their minds instead of what is right before them, their families and kids, and their kids' schools, i.e.

"In addition, "the guardians" of society, have come to consider their own population psychopaths by nature, sack them together and make rules and obligations"

Though it isn't the police who make the rules but who uphold them, there's a tendency towards what you say. Where I live that tendency has come full circle, it is reality, and it is not pretty.

In the US we can still talk to the police and individual police officers still sometimes choose to help citizens out through personal decision, just like 'we', the people, sometimes applaud the police when they bring down certain types of crime that goes beyond anything a functioning society can and may accept. All this you would NEVER see where I currently live. I'll abstain from going further into the subject now, but I probably will in future articles.

"One may just start to speak loudly about nothing, and still some person will probably be offended and scared."

Where I live they ALL would react that way. And talking about dumbing oneself down. You know, until little more than 3 years ago this country didn't have a school for gifted children. A woman who had lived in the US, and who was a member of Mensa, came home and wanted to create such a school. It took her two years to get clearance because most were against it. They look at the idea as of giving the privileged more privilege. They didn't realize that a gifted person who can't get schooling that is designed to teach people who are gifted, will be under-privileged, very likely for life (unless he comes from a good family who can send him overseas to a school that does the right thing).

And yes, people here wonder how DDR could be, just as they wonder how USA can be. They look at both as ultimate evils. DDR because they've been taught by history that this is what you do, you look at it as evil, and USA because they've been taught by their own rule to think like that simply because thinking like that allows those in power to keep you under their thumb and keep you from learning there are other ways.

Intensity is considered bad behavior EVERYWHERE around here. What's worse, if you're an intense person you Will make mistakes especially during childhood, and that will get you labeled, and once you're labeled as a persona non grata (an unwanted, someone who's different and therefore can't be trusted) you'll never be allowed to join society on normal premises. I've meet a lot of people in prison who could've grown up to be normal citizens - but then, most of them preferred it the way they were despite the prison terms and being able to survive only by crime.

Zhawq said...

Anon June 4. -15, 2:35 AM - Part 1(b):

The paranoia, the suspicion, those are trademarks of this country. People here suspect one another to a degree that is mindblowing. Thus you can live in a three story building for twenty years and not once say hello to all your neighbors. Very common around here (and I live in the capital along with approx. 1-1.5 mill other people).

The immigration is a natural cause of overpopulation and bad balance of distribution of riches between countries.

"So where does it stem from, the fear ?"

This one is so simple you'd never think of it because you were brought up with it: When every decision is made for you and you aren't allowed to defend yourself or your loved ones, plus the government are clearly liars - it is obvious even to those with no education at all - and they're secretive, you aren't told anything, you have no rights except from on paper but those rights are overturned at the blink of an eye when any authority in your country decides to do so... THAT, my friend, instills a deep fear in every single individual - except for the psychopaths, which is the real reason why they find us so dangerous as a personality type.

"when they have had enough. I shall help, and their gratitude will make me their "new king and ruler". :)"

A lot of shit is happening in the families alright, out of frustration, the immigrants even more than those who were already there feel the whip over their shoulders, the suspicion, the never seizing demands that they change and become the population yet stay below them, and the state - again the STATE!!! - takes over and tells everybody how to raise their kids. No wonder they get screwed up and desperate until they get to GIVE up and their children carry on with burden, running rampart in the streets whenever there's a hole where they can do so. These people's dignity are being stripped off of them the moment they're allowed in by the almighty faceless state, all under the guise of kindness.

How convenient for the state this is. They've been handed a fine new scapegoat, and boy do they use it. As I mentioned before: There's a reason why one of the smallest countries have the largest immigration to ISIS only second to one of the largest countries in Europe.

Well said. And we know exactly who 'I' is in this particular case, don't we? '^L^,

Zhawq said...

Anon June 4. -15, 2:35 AM - Part 2(a):

"Is it bad ? I don't know."

I'd say it is some of both. A lot of circumstance that was used by the quick heads to arrange themselves so that they would be next to impossible to push off the throne, all along while keeping a face of benevolence outwardly to a degree that other countries in the end decided to make a joke of them calling them the one thing they are not: Happy and good (yep, that was a joke and never meant to be taken seriously though as predicted, some did exactly that).

"I don't even have a fucking clue if it is on purpose."

In some ways it is very much on purpose, but faces have to be maintained, so it is often not outspokenly so. But those who are behind it know exactly what they're doing, and part of the reason they keep going is that they can't understand that people actually are suffering. I remember it from myself, how I used to think it was all make belief when others weren't satisfied, were unhappy or frightened....No, not that I was a politician - I've known a few personally, so I know how they are, but I was never one. I compare them with myself for a different reason (figure it out; I can't risk to say outright why).

"Never change a winning team."

Food for thought and right to the point. It is about maintaining status quo and make sure nothing changes because "oh fright!" it could be worse. The problem with this is that things that don't change and that insists on looking inward but never outward, will wither and die, and on the way they'll go very sour and poisonous for everybody but those who have maintained their almighty status - and sometimes, and definitely at some time, even them too.

It is about fear, my friend. The one thing I don't understand even cognitively when it's taken to this extreme. To be so afraid that you can't let anything new or different enter your personal sphere or you'll go crazy with paranoia and hatred, that I just don't understand. And that is how it is here - luckily not everywhere in the Western Culture, though there are little signs of it in every country. It's just full blown here.

It could be worse, yes. And yet, for a few of us it already is pretty much as bad as it can be. Even the few people who know me here agree that they haven't ever met anybody else who got it this bad, as I am being given it. I Do know a few who wish to help me, but they can't and they fear to try, so they don't. Some of them have families, so it's understandable.

Have you ever wondered... You know, there was this case some years ago with a man who had been committing serial murders in a small part of town for twenty years, and everybody knew who he was. Yet the police didn't really bother do what it took to catch him until some night when his sister turned him in.

If that same man had committed economical crimes, he'd have been taken into custody within a fortnight or so. I have a certain suspicion that I was used as an example not because of my killings, but because I also committed an economical crime in this country while I was here. It's all speculation, of course. But still, I've met prisoners who did worse things in terms of killing and bodily harm than I did, and who got a fifth of what I got in prison sentence. And yes, particularly the one who got so little was a psychopath too, and scoring a good deal higher than I. But he had never done white collar crimes, so... I mean, who cares about a middle aged man who will now live the rest of his life in a wheel chair scarred beyond recognition.

"There are major crimes, and minor. A parent abusing the family, has till recently, been more defined as a minor crime. The same crime in behavior, but directed towards "the system", has for long been a major crime. Murderer, that is way out of their framework, you see mate :)."

Zhawq said...

Anon, June 4. -15, 2:35 AM - Part 2(b):

Yeah, I understand. The question is if they aren't making things worse because now the family has too little saying in their children's upbringing. A lot of things are dysfunct about the old systems, but a sick society can't cure the sicknesses of another, only screw them up further.


That thing you say about your mother and how it may have helped you learn to see through people reminds me of my own situation in those years. There are differences, but I think I know what you're saying.

You can't understand why I can't just accept things as they've been decided for me. I think I understand why you can't understand it because you probably have to have had the shoes on yourself in order to do so. Maybe there's also an element of my psychopathy at play here. We are known to be very stubborn, insisting on our rights, and unwilling to accept what is wrong - especially if we're being singled out while we see others around us get those rights without question as we slowly get sicker and sicker, get forced into drug addiction and end up in homes for the disabled because we can't take care of ourselves anymore.

No, I can't accept that and I will fight it til my last breath!

If you saw me now and knew how I looked until 1,5 years ago you would be shocked, believe me. Pain has done that, pain and a joyless life (though I do my best to laugh at least thrice a day, and I often laugh at things I read or hear, but no longer about things I experience for they're not there anymore). However, I may still come back as my strong, old self. But when all is said and done I think it calls for at least some pondering how I have come to react the way I do now, but it was also me who underwent torture and a decade in mostly solitary confinement. Maybe, just maybe, I'm telling the truth when I say this is worse than either of the other things I have experienced.

Finally I'll say that NO man - or woman - should accept a situation such as mine, and I'm fully aware that the fact that some of you can even suggest that I should stems from another fact: That you haven't seen me in the situation I am in now. For if you had, your words would be different, of that I am quite sure.

"I think that may be the difference. Give it a thought. I think it may be the difference between a money hungry overpaid and overidolized CEO and Zhawk. "Radical Acceptance"."

'^L^,

I have given Jesus a lot of thought from a rather early age. I have studied religions and mythologies on a hobbyist level most of my life, but also because I'm philosophically interested by nature and always have been. But I have never been able to "believe" in Jesus.

That is, I believe He exists, and I respect Him, but He isn't my g-d. There have been times where I wish I could believe in Him, or in the Virgin Maria, or Allah, because I'm sure if I could do that whole heartedly, I could also get my knee fixed through that One. Alas, that apparently isn't to be.

Zhawq said...

Anon, June 4. -15, 2:45 AM - Part 3:

"A better explanation that is less condemning
Most people tell you to have faith, as an expression for sympathy."


That's true, and I always thank them in the same spirit that they give me their advice because I know they mean well.

"You just gotta appreciate that they care as good as they can."

Exactly, and that is something I've always been good at. Many professionals never believed it because 'a psychopath can't show apppreciation nor such a level of insight in others' wish to help them; they only want to abuse". I couldn't make them understand how wrong that is - and I'm not the first to see it.

"That they will never truly understand what you have been through and def. what you have done. Yet they say so, because they do know you a little and do appreciate you. It is nice. Not to be taken to literally. Should try it one day. You have it in you somewhere :)"

'^L^,

What is it I should try someday? To understand what you explain? Yes, I would give the same advice to others if they're open to it. Understanding other people and seeing that they're not all out to get you is a good thing. But then, this is more ASPD territory.

Anonymous said...

We share a rather large common ground on these matter. I read around, in the media, that you're not alone on yours. These are very trembling times.
Maybe it is me, maybe it is my age, maybe I was a bit lucky and came across some things that I enjoyed as a kid, by accident also labeled as good habits/activities. The older one gets, the more complicated things become. Harder to grasp. I have to admit that I do miss some past things. The more traditional family (which I never experienced. What I had, wasn't very recommendable), a little bit more demanding school (even though it was never that demanding, but today it is lot worse. It is a joke), a bit less internet and indoor time for children. And also just some balls.

When I grew up, we used to know each and everyone in the suburb. Today, people seem afraid to go out. The old playgrounds of ours, simply dead in comparison. Ghost suburbia, apart from some immigrants that probably cannot afford the luxury and cost of indoor activities.
They are kind of forced to play outdoor, as we were. Good for them, but for integration, I don't know. Better if everyone participated.

Internet, PC or just fear. Don't know. Unfortunately the common ground and attachment among the inhabitants, is in trouble. On purpose ? for permanent or temporary reasons ? Well..

Enough isn't enough any longer. Groups roaming the streets like rats. Limitless violence, for the sake of violence. Kicking the face of a person down on the ground, is rather common today. 3 guys doing it simultaneously isn't uncommon either. We never saw such shit, when I grew up. They consider it "fun". Mostly because they are stupid narcs, entitled to jump 2-3-4-5 onto 1, and even deluded enough to get pride from such a "victory". Police to busy looking away from the problems or simply afraid themselves.

I just hope for the sake of the nation, that the hidden agenda is a desire to correct some of my mentioned concerns about the situation of today. I've had my piece of shit and injustice in that "club" (nothing like yours), but still I don't desire any type of total crash. I almost give a big shit, but not totally. I've had quite a few good experiences as well :)

1 city has been rather "lost" for years. Rather a decade. Another one was pretty close to it. And so it goes around.

Anonymous said...

Would you think about the population ? Drugged, seduced, bribed, or simply careless ?

Anonymous said...

I was thinking. All those conspiracy-thoughts. They are a never ending. A sea of possiblities. Twist one, a new one surges.. Aren't most of them a persons need to feel as if he/she has some control. I think so. Radical acceptance, would suggest to let go of that need, since one cannot know anyway. What are they really good for. I'd suggest not very much. Maybe I, maybe you, maybe other, we all should focus more on what we can do something about. What we can improve. Ourself. Maybe one can improve by letting go of the need to find solutions and outcomes. To trust. Have faith. I don't know.

Thoughts ?

Anonymous said...

I hope you don't mind me asking a very simple question. Maybe old for you. I'm sorry if so. A thought of something pretty simple, yet not so understandable.
You pass some stranger on the sidewalk, man/woman, doesn't matter, and the person gives you a genuine smile/nod. Does it make you feel something ? A bit warm or a tiny bit attached to the person ?

And if not, have you ever felt such emotions when you were younger ?

Tom Arrow said...

"We are known to be very stubborn, insisting on our rights, and unwilling to accept what is wrong - especially if we're being singled out while we see others around us get those rights without question as we slowly get sicker and sicker."

Zhawq, from a more narcissistic perspective, I find that to be quite curious. I find myself feeling like a victim quite regularly, but even when I do, I usually come to the conclusion that it is irrational.

Nietzsche writes in his Genealogy of Morals about the weird dichotomy of intent and action that lies beneath moralism. It goes something like "As if a lion was choosing to hunt more than a lightning chooses to strike". This stroke a chord with me. Why this poking into other people's minds?

Sure, I would be angry at any kind of pain endured through raw forces of nature. I would use that anger to try and survive, beat the challenge. But I would not waste much thought on whether what was happening to me was "unjust" or "wrong".

Is the definition of "wrong" not arbitrary? Why should you get the same treatment as others when you are not the same as others? I doubt that a psychopath would subscribe to egalitarianism.

Are you angry at the hypocrisy? At the intellectual betrayal? Is your anger more of a wish to see some kind of logical integrity, to feel some kind of connection?

I just cannot see how one could sincerely appreciate absolute concepts of right and wrong without feelings like guilt.

Zhawq said...

Anon (Jay), June 5. -15, 3:58 AM - Part 1(a):

"Was a little lost on one part of your reply there, the - Jay - Part 3:...seemed like you asked me a question in part 2/2 of the reply then answered it like I had asked it...wires crossed there big time somehow, anyway.."

I think I know which part you mean. I noticed it after I'd posted it, so I deleted the post and posted again, but somehow I must've forgotten to take that part out.

"I have made psychopathy my life."

Funny how things go, I feel others have made psychopathy my life. I wouldn't have chosen it on my own, but I've always felt on and off throughout my life that 'fate' (for lack of a better word) made decisions for me - often decisions I would fight against, but I would always end up doing what I was meant to do. - I know how it sounds, and it's most likely the old magical thinking rearing it's head again, and whether or not there's anything to it, it has always seemed to work.

"Finally my emotional understanding could be on par with my intellectual"

Yes, it's very important that the two are balanced.

"This has been the key to me passing this same emotional recognition onto other too.

I miss this part. I began doing it with my fellow inmates who were also psychopaths, but once the staff caught onto what I was doing, they'd limit and super-supervise my time in company with others, and it wasn't too long there after that they trapped up the time I had to spend in research doing tests and so on. Finally I was set free, and since then I haven't had any opportunity to do this kind of thing offline.

"I am glad you got my answer, there are many psychopaths who can talk the talk, but few who know the playing field also.

Very true, though also depending a lot upon what kind of surroundings they have their daily life in.

"You asked- Are you saying we can change by (a strict) implementation of some kind of therapy?

Well we are not stone obviously, of course we can change in certain ways, but that was certainly not my insinuation."


Okay, was just checking that I didn't misunderstand you.

"all this talk about what psychopaths are, the mystery....it is pretty simply business really."

Yep, simply how it is - and has become more than anything.

"Once this is understood, anything else on the topic of psychopathy is small fries, peripheral information."

Zhawq said...

Anon (Jay), June 5. -15, 3:58 AM - Part 1(b):

I suspect that it is much for normal people when they try to understand us as it is for us when we try to understand them: A cognitive lesson we must learn until we can say it in our sleep. Real understanding, I don't know.

"They need to go back to the ABC's."

Predicting our rate of criminal recidivism and so on is the ABC. They need to go beyond that.

"I was taught by a researcher about our sexual hormone balance, and it finally explained things about myself and a lot of anecdotal evidence from others."

Yeah, it is tit bits like that that sometimes gives us new insight that far surpasses the intention of what was written or said at the time. I've had the same experience many, many times.

"Learning that impulsivity has a gene and it was not learning, but rather a short impulse fuse from genetics, as to why this was more pronounced in me than most people."

THat one was an eye opener for me too.

"But to understand everything else, knowing the fairly simple emotional differences and some basics on psychology and child hood development, is all it really takes."

Hmm, maybe. It seems that way, but if it really is that way and that's all there's too it, I don't know if that's true.

"You say that there will be much more, do you mean filling in the gaps of current knowledge or do you know or think of some new information that should be available in the near future?"

I mean both of these, lots of filling in gaps that'll lead to lots of new knowledge.

continued....

Zhawq said...

Anon (Jay), June 5. -15, 3:59 AM - Part 2(a):

"You say it is known and not new to anybody, and I understand what you mean by that, yet everyone is off chasing red herrings, leading experts still use tools because they don't understand"

And they will continue to need books to help define the basics and beyond, because that kind of understanding is not inherent unless they are born with the condition themselves.

"and I hope my book fills this gaping void and makes me rich lol."

Lol.

And yes, it will take thousands of hours to gain a solid understanding of what we're all about.

"Some researchers and therapists may wish to investigate strictly controlling a psychopaths environment in an attempt to use such an understanding of our emotional differences and childhood development to create a healed or cured psychopath"

It's already been tried loyts and lots of times. It's being tried as we speak. And it still doesn't work.

"growing body of evidence that says such an assumption that psychopath means criminal,broken, ill or bad or is in anyway ethical to discriminate along such lines, is wrong."

There, you said it.

"They can't even diagnose psychopaths under 18 at the moment, and the tide is increasing in our favour in terms of human rights and soft fluffy protection, so I do not see that as a threat, not even viable imo."

We can hope you're right, and some evidence certainly seems to suggest as much, but not everywhere (not where I'm at, f.ex., quite the contrary here). There are forces also in the UK - even in the US - that works hard to stop anything that we would call progress.

"Zhawq I have a request, but I am only around for about another week, so time is of the essence if you get to it. There is something you would know, that I don't and although I may soon learn where I am going, I still wonder if you could tell me. The most psychopathic individuals out continued....
there, pure psychopaths or however you want to name them. Could you describe briefly the extremeness of experience for them in terms of basic emotional difference."


I've had this in mind while I was away these past days, but I couldn't do much about it. I hope I'm back in time, then.

First I would say that you should worry about it in terms of where you'll be going. I think you'll know them when you meet them. You may sense a distance even when you're standing next to the person and talking small talk. They won't care that you're a psychopath even if they know it easily and they won't want to build a rapport.

Zhawq said...

Anon (Jay), June 5. -15, 3:59 AM - Part 2(b):

There isn't much I can say because this is something one has to experience for oneself, and it is possible you'll get some burned fingers while you're in there, simply due to lack of experience. But that's just it: Take it as such: Experience and watch out for yourself. Most of all, don't give in to the urge to open up, for this is something these guys are good at making you do against your better knowledge.

As for describing the difference in terms of emotionality, think of that scale we've talked so much about. They're just a little further down on it than you are.

You have a good baggage of knowledge, but it is mostly intellectual. Because of this I would sincerely advice you to stay away from people that you know are psychopaths while in there. I don't mean you can't talk to any of them, but don't try to get close to them, they'll sense it and use it against you because they don't know your motives, nor will they be likely to care.

"I have dealt with a shit ton of psychopaths and sociopaths over the years, but I wonder how extreme is the most extreme psychopaths emotionally."

It's not something you can understand better by putting numbers on it - we have the PCL-R for that anyway - but once they're past their 20s they're pretty much beyond reach. There will always be "bad seeds" among human beings, that's just the way it is. What I'm emphasizing is that today we're creating them almost deliberately and that's what we need to stop.

There are psychopaths as extreme as you can get and there are psychopaths as close to normal as you can get. I can't get much closer to a definite than that unless I'm with you on a daily basis and can point them out to you as they come in and go out of your life. Too bad at present we don't have this luxury (only the professionals do, and the rare individual such as Andy McNab), maybe some time in the future.

"I think you and I are pretty similar"

We certainly seem to have similarities, I'll give you that. :)

"and it is rare for me to meet another psychopath before that I just know is more than me, but it has happened twice in my life..."

Well I haven't exactly been secretive about it, lol.

"I am sure it would make peoples interest and enthralment have an orgasm if you wrote of such experiences.

I do know the types you describe pretty well, have met them in abundance even. You may be right that people might find it interesting to hear about such encounters. A few years of my life was pretty much nothing other than that all the time, so I have plenty of material. It's just that I don't find them very interesting in and off themselves, but I'll think about it.

I do plan to write more about my personal experiences, so it would be a good opportunity to bring some of these types up there - in fact, I can't really avoid it.

Always a pleasure, cheers, Jay

Likewise, my friend. '^L^,

Anonymous said...

You are completely off-track with all this pseudo-science.
Your "problem" is simple, but the only problem in this "problem" is that your mind is affraid to find the answer.
And you are trying to find an alternate solution in something "complicated", pseudo-scientific.
The only real thing in all of this pseudo-scientific stuff is that you are at the borderline of life and death.
You are afraid of yourself, yet you don't know why.
You don't how to connect to life.
If you disconnect from yourself then you alter your mind and see murder all around.
The only cure you need to face yourself.
No pseudo-scientific theory will ever help you - because this theory is your own excuse only!
The only enemy is you yourself. Get it!
Death is a real thing in our world, but there is more than murder all around and in you too.
Accept the existence of death in our world, accept the world you live in, but also find where the life is.
Stop lying. Stop searching for excuse.
You are on a good track with all your investigation. You are close to the truth, but still not close enough.

Zhawq said...

Anon, June 5. -15, 4:49 PM:

I have decided to turn my reply and your comment into an article because it gives me a good opportunity to finally address the issue of rape. I know it seems unrelated, but wait and see.

Thanks for contributing. '^L^,

.........
PS. Another article will be published a little later today. Just need a bit of finishing touch.

Zhawq said...

Anon, June 5, 2015 at 5:03 PM:

"Would you think about the population ? Drugged, seduced, bribed, or simply careless ?

I would say all of these. '^L^,

Anonymous said...

Cheers Zhawq, thanks for the reply and advice, got to me in time even.

Not worried about prison tbh, just thought I would take the opportunity and do some homework, I am not very social at the best of times lol.If you ever have a bit more time and feel like getting involves with the network idea just talk to the right people, you will be welcomed with open arms.

Keep up the good work, hope someone prints your articles and sends them to me. Good luck, thanks for all your work and help and hope your health gets better soon.

Jay

Zhawq said...

Anon, June 6, 2015 at 10:21 AM,

I have written and published an article based on your comment. I hope you find my answers satisfying and maybe even useful. If you have questions, or comments, I'll be pleased to hear them. '^L^,

Zhawq said...

Anon, June 6, 2015 at 11:52 AM:

"A thought of something pretty simple, yet not so understandable.
You pass some stranger on the sidewalk, man/woman, doesn't matter, and the person gives you a genuine smile/nod. Does it make you feel something ? A bit warm or a tiny bit attached to the person ?"


It doesn't make me feel attached in any way, and it doesn't create physical reactions in me. But it may make me feel satisfied depending on my mood and where it happens, i.e.

"if not, have you ever felt such emotions when you were younger ?

I don't think so, no. But I remember the first time someone didn't smile back when I smiled at them in passing. I was a little child and used to make everybody smile back and thinking I was so cute. So it disappointed me when this person just looked sourly at me and continued on his way. It confused me.

This happened shortly after I'd been adopted, and I would soon get used to this being the norm instead of how it had been before. I was adopted into a small and very tight, traditional and strict old country community, and everybody knew who I was. People there certainly didn't smile to an orphan who's step mother spoke badly of him.

In truth they didn't smile much at all, period. It's still like that even in the capital city of the old country.

Zhawq said...

Tom Arrow:

Part 1.

"Zhawq, from a more narcissistic perspective, I find that to be quite curious. I find myself feeling like a victim quite regularly, but even when I do, I usually come to the conclusion that it is irrational."

Yes, me too. But I was a lot like that when I was younger. Now I only react that way if it's something that interferes with my happiness or my health or even my life.

"Nietzsche writes in his Genealogy of Morals about the weird dichotomy of intent and action that lies beneath moralism. It goes something like "As if a lion was choosing to hunt more than a lightning chooses to strike". This stroke a chord with me. Why this poking into other people's minds?"

Why this poking into other people's minds? Because they were a mystery to me and I wanted to understand and find out how situations and mechanisms could be used to make a situation more interesting or better for the person in question... sometimes better for me too.

"Sure, I would be angry at any kind of pain endured through raw forces of nature. I would use that anger to try and survive, beat the challenge. But I would not waste much thought on whether what was happening to me was "unjust" or "wrong"."

I hear you. I have been using energy on that because it is THE way I have a chance to change it. I can't do surgery in myself. If my money has been stolen and kept out of my reach deliberately, I cannot move away because it costs money.

The anger against it being wrong and unjust has something to do with how this country is basing everything it does on a false criteria that it is absolutely just and good and right and before anything else, ORDERLY. And it uses these traits to keep people down. It also annoys me to no end that I live among people who should know better but who don't care because they need to see others being ducked so they can feel they themselves aren't so bad that this has to be done to them. Secretly and just below the conscious mind they know that if anybody deserves "punishment" it is them themselves, and they can't afford to let that awareness surface. But enough about that. The short of it is that it is the only means I have to fight by.

When that is said I can see in hindsight that it has infested my thinking somehow, but that only makes it worse in a sense. Good thing, though, that I'm not so completely lost and I have a mind that is unusually strong (no, not bragging, it's the naked truth. I'm aware of it and it's what's kept me capable of keeping a hope alive during this strange period).

"Is the definition of "wrong" not arbitrary? Why should you get the same treatment as others when you are not the same as others? I doubt that a psychopath would subscribe to egalitarianism."

If you knew how many times I have given myself this very argument. But every time I arrive at the same conclusion: It isn't me who decided, promised, made law, etc., that I should receive the same treatment as others, it is the society where I've done my time and now have been stuck at for four years.

Zhawq said...

Tom Arrow:

Part 2.

And you know what? I was so stupid I believed them... at least in the sense that I decided to play by the rules. But the more I did so, the more they mocked me and refused to believe me.

Now luckily I haven't decided to play by their rules only for the sake of being treated like they promised me, and like I am to some degree dependent on being treated if I am to create a life for myself. I did it because of the reasons I've mentioned here many times: I want to do it, I have no wish to live like an outlaw.

If they swear that they will treat me like they treat everybody else even though I'm different, and then they go and behave as if they were like me (the truth is that some of those who have made it the very worst ARE psychopaths but won't face the fact, so they put every psychopath they meet down because it annoys them to see themselves whenever they look one of us in the eyes.

"Are you angry at the hypocrisy? At the intellectual betrayal? Is your anger more of a wish to see some kind of logical integrity, to feel some kind of connection?"

Maybe there's something there. I don't know about the connection, I don't feel I lack a connection. But what I can't stand is that they can get away with behavior that is worse than what I do, and hypocritic - something I've never been is a hypocrite, and I can't understand how it's suddenly alright to be hypocritic if only you aren't a psychopath.

I'm paying first and foremost for being alone, for not having a social network anymore. It angers me that it seems that everything is okay to do if only you pretend to be stupid and like what everybody else likes, believe in what everybody else believes in in this little hell hole, and if you don't or won't do that you'll get punished severely.

I have vowed to never become like them but be a good person who stands by his integrity. I think they hate that about me more than anything else. Remember, most people have no clue about how to recognize if someone is a psychopath or not.

So finally I say yes to play the game, but it's too late because they register everything about everybody, and even the mistakes and faulty notes stay on your journal, your registry, your sheets.

You know, half of this population is clinically depressed or lonely or otherwise deeply unhappy. Half of the population lives alone and speak to virtually nobody. If spoken to, their eyes immediately flicker with fear, they look away and hurry on their way or give excuses to do so.

This is not a happy nation. But the average citizen bows his head and allows the system to break him. I haven't done that and that is why they're on me. It's really quite simple. What isn't so simple is how I get free of it.

"I just cannot see how one could sincerely appreciate absolute concepts of right and wrong without feelings like guilt."

I agree, but what I am experiencing has nothing to do with absolute concepts of right and wrong, or with right and wrong at all. It has to do with honoring a contract that two parties agree about. I think it's only natural to be angry if you find that only your side of the contract must be honored and for the rest of it you're left to rot and hopefully die pitifully. And don't give me the one about "but you've done so much bad" and yadda yadda, because these people DON"T CARE about bad, they only care about feeling good and getting through the day without being the next scapegoat.

This country is a culture consisting of a population that hunts scapegoats, always the hunt for scapegoats. If you knew what country I'm residing in you'd most likely see how true this is since it has a long tradition of authorship about this very topic, hell, even Shakespeare writes about it.

Tom Arrow said...

Part 1

"And don't give me the one about "but you've done so much bad" and yadda yadda"

Why would I say something that bizarre?

I think I am starting to understand your beef. You are an idealist. Honoring a contract seems like a basic thing to rely upon, yet for most people that's only important as long as they have sympathies for you - something I noticed myself. I think most people honor such rituals and morals in general less out of a wish for integrity, but for the respect and affirmation they get from others. For most people, integrity is more about being seen as integer, not about any kind of integrated concept per se. A mere label, so to speak.

I don't know which country you reside in, but I think I know what you are talking about. If you have a chance and haven't stumbled over it yet, you may be interested to read the book "Manipulism" which describes such a situation in Denmark. I have written a review about it here:
http://manwithoutfather.com/2015/03/02/review-of-manipulism-and-the-weapon-of-guilt/

The thing about I mean about poking into people's minds is this: You see them from a rational perspective and from an idealism that - curiously - seems to not allow you to see them simply as they are but as you expect them to be. Seeing them simply as machines who can't help themselves, is that too bleak to consider? Would you find it unjust if your computer refused to do something for you? Because no matter how angry you would get at it, you would know that it couldn't have possibly done anything differently. I started to watch this speech about free will by Sam Harris, you might like it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCofmZlC72g#t=215

Most of my life, I felt like the odd one out, expecting people to just accept the truth when I tell it. Now, I'm most likely not a psychopath - although I have much sympathies for you - and I personally was not as open to ideas as I expected people to be. I think I just had a wrong model in mind about how people function. Somehow, through the generations, old ideas about a consciousness in other people - and ourselves! - has persisted, which simply don't hold true to reality. Ideas that have kept society intact by providing us with some kind of irrational trust in ourselves and other people. This sounds quite abstract, but let me try to explain my thought like this: What is your anger but an expectation that is not met? And since you know reality for a long time now, how come your expectations are still existent? What can that be but blind idealism? How come you actually care to be a "good" psychopath, e.g. considering the love you feel for violence?

I see that one has to adapt simply out of considerations for personal safety and pretend to have values possibly, but to actually adapt them doesn't seem like a reasonable thing to do.

My suggestion of a wished connection was based on that thought. If people really are just machines who do not merely choose to not understand you, but in fact could not have chosen differently under any circumstances in this universe, would that not be devastating? I remember my first time meeting my father and then reading Ayn Rand. It felt like, for the first time in my life, I could have trust that somewhere on earth, there are likeminded people for whom I would not have to pretend anything. The author saw a serial murderer on TV and admired how he didn't care about the people who accused him. As if they didn't exist. I know it's one thing to read something like that and agree, that is affirming and great. But to be the one to go out there and speak it as the first person publicly, that's courageous.

Tom Arrow said...

Part 2

In the end, morals for most people are probably nothing but conditioning. They learned to say this and that thing and think this and that thing in this and that situation. They learned to forget their principles when you are not one of them. I know that this is how it is for me. Situations which I have not yet unconditioned, they simply take my mind and emotions to totally irrational and almost automatic places. It's scary and, you know what, most of my life I thought that that is how life should be always. Your perspective is obviously different.

You, for some reason, limit yourself through your idealism. You refuse to murder, to commit crimes. For what, for the acceptance of these people that scream "morals!" but act like the opposite. I understand it as a tactic, but I don't understand it if you really are convinced that it is the right way to go. If it is a tactic, I accept that you may not be answering to this truthfully. But for the chance that it is not, why not consider that?

In what universe, Zhawq, could you have the life you want? Could it be this universe? Is your idealism your own or is it just a prison that even you haven't been smart enough to notice yet? If you are surrounded by a million machines that proclaim X as the standard, but follow Y, is it the wise thing to follow X?

I think that reality works like this, even when people are not aware of it: People, as organisms, adapt to social norms whenever they are being observed, but automatically fall back when they are not. They simply slide in and out of these various states and although they have memories of it, it will seem to them as if some things had been done by different people, by demons. So they apologize for it and ask for absolution. And that belief in itself - that that behavior was imposed upon them - helps them to convince other people that they just "slipped". Take away the rationality and all you see is a big amount of individuals who - as evident in their behavior - enter social contracts to protect their own interests and admonish all other individuals to adhere to it, while searching for loopholes for themselves all the time. And when they themselves are admonished, they must feel guilt in order to give others a reason to keep up the status quo. After all, if one of the individuals actually opted out of the contract, the other individuals would no longer have a reason to stay in it with this person either, since the only thing they gain is the security from the other person that is enforced by the other person's fear of being no longer a part of the contract. Zhawq, it makes absolute sense to pretend to be moral while acting like the opposite. This must be obvious to you, for you are naturally a Machiavellian.

Add to that the video about Determinism (watch it, he has good arguments) and you stop even blaming people for it. Would you blame a mushroom for growing in good soil? It's people's nature. Morals are a strategy to keep others at bay, always. The ignorance of this fact is part of the strategy, too. Consciousness is not necessary.

That's why people fear psychopaths. They see the things that they have learned (or were born) not to see. Psychopaths are a danger to the structure because they don't respect the hypocrisy.

Ironically, whenever I talk to people of higher consciousness, I feel more ... not relaxed, but myself. I find it especially intoxicating when it is a girl. Like playing a challenging game I was born to play, not some boring theatre. When both people actually know they are playing instead of being engaged with an individual that doesn't even realize it's a game. Can you relate to that?

Appreciate the dialogue, take care.

Anonymous said...

"A thought of something pretty simple, yet not so understandable.
You pass some stranger on the sidewalk, man/woman, doesn't matter, and the person gives you a genuine smile/nod. Does it make you feel something ? A bit warm or a tiny bit attached to the person ?"

It doesn't make me feel attached in any way, and it doesn't create physical reactions in me. But it may make me feel satisfied depending on my mood and where it happens, i.e.


I am not surprised. It seems to be common among the "psychopaths" I know. From my brother, to other I have met. I think many normal will feel that there is something phony about a lot of them. Instinct-psychology. I have a gut feeling that this fact and the restlessness is related. I suspect it is also related to the manipulative side of the disorder. Also to what to me seems to often be a lack of genuity. Some days I think it is the byproduct of manipulation. Other days I wonder if it is the other way around. Being manipulative as a product of the lack of genuity.
I don't know. What I do know is that if one is an honest and genuine person, one gets the pleasurable feeling of knowing that persons hang around you because they like you as a person, and not as a maquina or the facade you put out. And if that happens to also be who one truly is, it is quite awesome.
It is gratifying. Tactics, manipulation are for games and sports, not interpersonal relationships, imo. You may win in the short run, but in the end that restlessness will get you.
(Not that people cannot dislike a genuine and honest person. He can still be a thief, emotional unstable and untrustworthy etc..)

Anonymous said...

I've always felt as the odd one out
Tom. You're on fire. Very interesting post.

I've told you before. You may score high on existential and intrapersonal intelligence. And that is very "odd". Doesn't make you a psycho.

Tom Arrow said...

existential and intrapersonal intelligence
With all due respect, that sounds like mockery. I like it.

Cat Fetus said...

u spelled losing wrong u put loosing u need learning gramer.

Mewtwo said...

Hi Tom,
as a sociopath, I will say that manipulation can be a result of different emotions. But I feel at the base, in psychopaths and sociopaths we all act from a place of mistrust. Why? Because from our interactions, we have a deep belief that people can be controlled. Empaths couldn't care less about a chair. why? because the chair behaves in such predictable ways and does not challenge anybody.
While people are certainly more challenging than objects, they are not as challenging to us as they are challenging to empaths. I work in customer service and empaths struggle dealing with people and hate coming to work. I find my job so easy it bores me to tears because I can more or less reliably predict how people will act depending on how I act. If people could be unpredictable to psychopaths and sociopaths, we would feel stressed out but I just know that we would respect people and ultimately we would be able to genuinely love someone.
Another emotion which is rife among us psychopaths/sociopaths is low self esteem. We often alternate between high and low self esteem. Speaking for myself, if someone happens to make me happy for a moment, I will go out of my way to return the favour even if deep down I don't want to. But in this way, I keep tabs and owe them nothing. Because people bring me so little joy, I have come to expect very little from people. For my own sanity I need some dose of low self esteem to survive in this dry world I live in because it would be insanity to believe that I deserve the best life possible when I can experience so little joy.
Over time manipulation becomes second nature which makes it hard to understand why we do it and often we fool ourselves to believe our own little lies! In fact a common wish among many psychopaths/sociopaths is to be able to speak our mind and stop saying things that people want to hear.
Mewtwo

Tom Arrow said...

Mewtwo,

what keeps you from speaking your mind?

Tom

Anonymous said...

Just imagine for a moment, you can see a situation for exactly what it is. You see the situation, you see the emotions of the people involved. You know what your emotions are and they are not part of what is going on. You can clinically look at a situation. Now imagine for a minute you were dealing with a person who could see those emotions?

People are getting manipulated and played. As we speak today, Europe, with the possible exception of a few countries, are being overrun by foreigners and it's not looking like a good time for Europe.If you look in Latin America, you see that their governments are being forced to take measures that promote economic stagnation. In Asia, with the communist government in china, and the demoralized culture of Japan, you don't have much to fear there. As far as the US is concerned, I need say nothing.

Western countries have major problems, but they are worried about the psychopath. The psychopath is not the major problem in those countries. The capabilities people have and what they can do with them, are the things you have to work with. A big number of people are quite dishonest with their intentions.

It's not that I don't believe man is basically good. It's just that, after hearing "to err is to human", a few too many times, and seen it in practise, I start having second thoughts about extending trust to too many,no pun intended. So, even with good intentions, more often than not, you will almost always get disasters. Case in point, almost every government on earth today.

For a little while, unconsider everything you have said, everything you have been told, and just consider your situation for exactly what it is. You will see then what your situation is. I hope you can make your situation better. Tools are what you use to get the job done.

Anonymous said...

Just because this is going to bother me if I don't say anything: BPD stands for Borderline Personality Disorder, not Bipolar Personality Disorder. I haven't heard of that diagnosis before (and my degree is in psychology), but I've heard of Borderline PD and Bipolar Disorder, and sometimes I've heard the label bipolar depression. So the name of your blog tag confuses me.

Zhawq AmaDraque said...

Anon Feb. 4. 2017,

If I wrote Bipolar Disorder somewhere it should bother you because it is wrong and a mistake. I took a look through the article but could find where I wrote "bipolar Disorder" just now, but I'm going to correct it when I find it.

Thank you for making me aware of this.