Saturday, January 3, 2015

The Good Psychopath - 2



I am a good person, a good psychopath, and I have found proof that this is possible.

I used to dislike being called a psychopath. I didn't like to be associated with primitive simple minded selfish brutes and wanted the stigma gone. I really didn't like anything about it, but this has changed. I have stated early on that I believe I'm a good person. Readers who have read some of my earlier texts will know that this is a truth with modification, but I will explain why I nevertheless still think it is true.

I have also said that I don't think a brain scan can tell how I interpret my emotions. While I may not have proved this, I have found something that proves something else: You can't determine whether a person is good or bad based on the result of his brain scan. The video above features James Fallon, a renowned neuroscientist who got the surprise of his life when he accidentally had put a copy of his own brain scan into a pile of psychopathic killers' brain scan results, and he found that his own had the exact same kind of 'killer pattern' as theirs.

James Fallon's findings changed everything that was thought to be known about psychopathy. In fact, we now know that psychopaths can be completely well adjusted and productive members of society. They can have a loving family and a job that they do well, they can have friends and be very well liked, they can have a blank crime sheet and never have physically harmed anybody in their lives, and yet have the brain of a violent psychopathic killer.

So there you have it, you can essentially be a psychopath and yet not be a threat to society.

But if this is true, why do some psychopaths - myself included - become antisocial? The answer I have found to make the most sense is that those of us who become antisocial usually have had a childhood that was marked by neglect and/or abuse, especially very early on. It is true there are cases where none of this seems to have played any role, but I think there's one more thing that is very important: To be understood and to be given guidance that you can emotionally relate to.

Let me say right away that there are levels of psychopathy, and obviously there will be the odd few who can't be reached. These are people who score 40 on the PCL-R (Psychopathy Check List - Revised). But if we have to go down that route, there are also people at the far opposite end, people who are so emotionally overloaded and without filter that they can't function. They create a different kind of hell, while mostly for themselves they can't be easy to live with either.

That is not to say that I think everything should be within the narrow mainstream. There does have to be some sort of balance for things to work, but we need variety, we need those who are different - whichever end of the spectrum they may inhabit - and I am glad to be who and what I am. I am not happy about my past and I am not proud that I had to go through years of antisocial shit, but I did what most people do not: I dug my way through it and came out at the other end. I now have a choice, I am no longer a victim of an abusive and neglectful childhood, and nor do I have to victimize others in order to feel some excitement anymore. I got over that even before I began writing this blog. But while at first my lack of need for antisocial activity used to stem from the fact that I had already done all that, it is now based more in understanding who I am and why I felt driven to do the things I did.

Let me end this article with a heart felt thanks to James Fallon for having made available to the public the findings you made that day when you accidentally left your scan results in the psychopathic killers' pile.

Watch another James Fallon video about psychopathy and the role an abusive and neglectful childhood plays in making a psychopath grow up to become antisocial and violent, here.

..........

PS. I mentioned these things in a debate on Youtube and expected the reaction to be something like: "Really? That must be a mistake! Surely psychopaths can't be good people?". But boy, was I wrong. The reaction I got was: "Yeah, James Fallon and Kevin Dutton(1*) are lying because he's working for psychopaths!"....Those interested can read the whole thing here.

(1*) - More about Kevin Dutton in an upcoming article.

Read: The Good Psychopath.

85 comments:

Anonymous said...

It seems pretty dumb and biased when people think we can't be nice or productive etc.

I think what you said about the people who cannot be reached will be those that score 40 on the PCL-R is just wrong,the ones who can't be helped are the secondary psychopaths who are so deeply down their sociopathic progression but don't have the primary psychopathy to come out to on the other side - for these individuals there is no other side. Besides that, the PCL-R is falling out of favour and rightly so- they biased criminality aspect and measuring a cognitive pathology via behaviours is fundamentally flawed.

Cheers Jay

Anonymous said...

Hi man! Do you know that they are levels of psychopathy, that go from low to high, although all that is a bullshit. I am a extreme psychopath and I do commit crimes, and I don´t give a shit about it, and one day a gonna make some people pay with their life. Although all that I care by animals, and I love nature, so all that scientific certainty about us , and th movies making from a condition a witch hunt, will fail and psychopathy will became a wrong diagnosed genetic and social disorder because the of future mankind state is our brain state.

John Nutt said...

"But if this is true, why do some psychopaths - myself included - become antisocial? The answer I have found to make the most sense is that those of us who become antisocial usually have had a childhood that was marked by neglect and/or abuse, especially very early on. It is true there are cases where none of this seems to have played any role, but I think there's one more thing that is very important: To be understood and to be given guidance that you can emotionally relate to." It is believed by the scientists who study psychopathy (as it is defined by Robert Hare) that it has a strong genetic component and it correlates to physical structures in the brain. Also psychology is not a hard science and the people who claim the psychopaths can be cured ( by "talk therapies" and such things) are motivated by money and the need to protect their business. Also so called pro social psychopaths cannot actually be psychopaths - since they completely lack any factor 2/antisocial traits

Zhawq said...

Anon Jan. 4.-15, 9:22AM,

I care about nature because we as a species and inhabitants of a planet ruled by the laws of nature are stupid if we don't care about the environment. But I have never felt the love that you mention, not even when I am in the wilderness and watch beautiful scenery. Sure, I can see it is very beautiful, but it's a cognitive recognition, not an emotional one. I would be very interested if you will tell me how you experience this kind of emotion.

..........

John Nutt,

all psychopaths have some antisocial traits, but not all have them to a degree that gets them into crime. A very important aspect is your upbringing, if you have been given a decently solid fundament of reliable guidance you may be able to navigate around the worst types of antisocial behavior by the use of self discipline instilled throughout your childhood and adolescence.

An intelligent psychopath can control his behavior a long part of the way, but to do this he will have to understand why it is a good idea and why it will be beneficial to himself, he will need to want to do it.

Zhawq said...

Jay,

you're right, the PCL-R does seem to have outplayed it's role to a certain degree. Part of the reason, as you have seen, is that it's findings are based almost solely on research made on incarcerated criminals, and while this by the very nature of things had to generate a rather narrowly defined type of results, it is still a very valuable forerunner for what seems to tend towards more realistic findings in the years to come.

As negative Bob Hare's view on psychopaths is, it is still his writings, his books, that I have to thank for the fact that I finally found an opening through which I could begin the research that lead to my own self-understanding which has enabled me to take better control over my own life.

On that note I find it funny that Hare himself believes that psychopaths can't use the knowledge we acquire from reading his books (or from other areas of psychology) to anything good, he thinks we'll always use it to become more adept at being antisocial. But then again, he still speaks out of experience with incarcerated individuals, and when you're incarcerated there's very little chance that you will use any new knowledge for something pro-social.

Anonymous said...

Zhawq,

Well he helped you become self aware through his writings, I am sure I am one of a great many you have helped gain self awareness through your writings and such, and in turn the numbers of people I have helped become self aware is now well over a hundred, butter fly effect. I bet he would not sleep to well at night knowing this, perhaps denial is his coping mechanism lol.

But yeah, I agree, it is a good starting point, though I still prefer Hervey Cleckley's work.

I have spoken with some experts who work with both incarcerated and non incarcerated psychopaths in the field, and when they said tentative things about us very rarely becoming self aware, I told them that this is changing big time atm...they seemed to also be aware of this age of psychopathic enlightenment...they don't want to push that or perhaps are in fear or denial about coming to terms with this and it's scale, but here we come world, none the less.

Jay

John Nutt said...

Zhawq


"all psychopaths have some antisocial traits, but not all have them to a degree that gets them into crime. " By this do you mean they may use those "antisocial" traits like manipulativeness and superficial charm for ends which are not criminal (and possibly even benefits society?).

"A very important aspect is your upbringing, if you have been given a decently solid fundament of reliable guidance you may be able to navigate around the worst types of antisocial behavior by the use of self discipline instilled throughout your childhood and adolescence." I thought psychopaths are supposed to have a need for simulation and a lack of being able to follow any long term or medium goal? So I don't see how this is possible.

"An intelligent psychopath can control his behavior a long part of the way, but to do this he will have to understand why it is a good idea and why it will be beneficial to himself, he will need to want to do it." An important thing Fallon says is that he is not a fully fledged psychopath but only a borderline or "partial psychopath" (Sam Vaknin also says the same). Meaning while he has many psychopathic traits he doesn't have enough to be considered a fully fledged psychopath ( eg he has cold empathy but is not impulsive).

Zhawq said...

Jay,

you wrote:
"I bet [Robert Hare] would not sleep to well at night knowing this, perhaps denial is his coping mechanism lol."

Well he does know what I am doing and that I'm reaching other psychopaths, providing information that helps them gain some new understanding about themselves.

While I'm fairly sure he doesn't miss any sleep over me or my writings specifically, I'm also quite sure - no, I know - that he doesn't agree with what I'm doing. He doesn't believe in it. His standpoint is "I'll see it before I believe it".

But the problem with this, as we know, is that people tend to see what they believe they'll be seeing, they see what they believe to be the truth or established facts.

That said, Robert Hare is no fool, and he has a scientist's approach to things, so I believe that in a decade, or maybe two decades - some time in a foreseeable future - he will be presented with enough evidence, and enough scientific data, to see that while a better and deeper understanding of psychopaths - in the public, and among psychopaths themselves - will not take place on a wider scale, it Will happen often enough, and for a large enough number of especially younger psychopaths, to be indisputably working when the criteria are present and the information and tools are made available to those involved (the psychopaths, their immediate family, and their local community).

- I too like Cleckley for many reasons, one of which is that his descriptions show that psychopathy can take quite an impressive number of forms and does vary greatly. The most important thing, IMO, is how he clearly shows that a very large number of psychopaths aren't consciously trying to hurt or harm people and that many psychopaths really like to see other people happy and will at times go even farther than most normal people in order to achieve that.

- When people say psychopaths are incapable of becoming self aware or gaining self-directed insight, they usually base this on the assumption that self awareness necessitates understanding, experiencing, and awareness about empathy and remorse....feelings we can't experience and therefore also not gain insight about.

What they rarely take into consideration is that we don't have to experience love and remorse in order to gain self insight and awareness. Indeed, many psychopaths aren't even aware that they don't have the ability to experience these emotions. It is by investing time, energy, honesty, and goodwill, that will enable the individual psychopathic person to achieve self insight and greater awareness.

As with all new things and every true improvement that comes around in our world, we will be met with resistance. However...

Here we come world, none the less! ...'^L^,

Zhawq said...

John Nutt,

you wrote:
"By this do you mean they may use those "antisocial" traits like manipulativeness and superficial charm for ends which are not criminal (and possibly even benefits society?)."

Well, not exactly, but you're on to something. I do think (and know for a fact) that many psychopaths use skills that may be seen as basically antisocial to achieve pro-social ends, ends that are beneficial to individuals or to society.

When I say all psychopaths have antisocial traits but to varying degree, I mean to say that some may tease a colleague a bit more than appropriate while another may create elaborate schemes of serious harassment.

"I thought psychopaths are supposed to have a need for simulation and a lack of being able to follow any long term or medium goal?"

This is something that has been said often, but it is a truth with modifications.

Psychopaths do have a very strong need for stimulation, and when this need is not met staying focused becomes very difficult. The answer to the question about whether we can stick with something for an extended period of time depends on the level of stimulation you get from what you are doing.

It is because of this need that many psychopaths do very well in positions that are associated with risk and danger, high pace and sudden changes. A psychopath who becomes interested in the work of a soldier, or maybe a brain surgeon (to pick something) and in doing this work the best way possible, will very likely be able to stay focused for one or two decades, or more - provided his life off duty, during weekends and holidays, is inspiring as well. How constant the need for stimulation is varies between individuals, and some may be easily satisfied with an uneventful vacation if his work is intense and varied enough.

You sometimes read in the papers about some big shot who has been at the top in business, leading a multi mill dollar corporation for two decades, and suddenly he blows the whole thing by let's say killing a prostitute. How can this be?, we ask. It can be, because this person has exhausted the stimulation he could get from his career, from climbing the ladder of wealth and power, he has reached most possible goals and the rest will be variations over a now very familiar theme. So he needs something new, something different.

To such a guy, going with prostitutes may not be all that new, but killing a prostitute will be. If he's fed up enough, he may do something of this nature - or something non-violent but equally shocking and difficult to understand to the public.

"Fallon says is that he is not a fully fledged psychopath but only a borderline or "partial psychopath"

Yes, psychopathy is a spectrum not a fixed one-size-fits-all condition. Fallon has the genetic neurological traits of a 'full fledged' psychopath, he also has a good natured character, and he has a childhood with supportive advice. His character and his childhood has made it possible for the more seriously negative potential of his psychopathy to remain dormant.

Side note: I too have the genetic neurological traits, and I also have the good natured character, but I completely lack any form of supportive advice or friendliness in my childhood. Because of what I lack in my childhood my negative potential became active, but because of my good natured character I am able to make the decision and then the effort to turn things around.

"he has cold empathy but is not impulsive"

Fallon is most certainly impulsive. But again, he is also good natured and is currently working with the tendencies his impulsiveness brings about.

Sam Vaknin is a psychopath, there's no two ways about it. His narcissism may be of a higher degree, but that does not mean his psychopathy is anywhere near borderline. However, as far as I can tell, he has never been physically violent in any serious way, if at all - but this is the same for countless psychopaths.

John Nutt said...

@Zhawq part 1

"When I say all psychopaths have antisocial traits but to varying degree, I mean to say that some may tease a colleague a bit more than appropriate while another may create elaborate schemes of serious harassment." Right so all psychopaths level of satisfaction is different then? 1 psychopath might be satisfied by bullying a work college, another might be satisfied by starting a witch hunt against her ( to get her fired and wreck her reputation) and another may get satisfaction by raping and killing her.

"How constant the need for stimulation is varies between individuals, and some may be easily satisfied with an uneventful vacation if his work is intense and varied enough." This goes back to my first reply (of this comment). If this is true it seems those psychopaths whose need for simulation is low are much easier to deal with and much more programmable

"To such a guy, going with prostitutes may not be all that new, but killing a prostitute will be. If he's fed up enough, he may do something of this nature - or something non-violent but equally shocking and difficult to understand to the public." Yes this is the big difficulty with the psychopaths is that they are unpredictable such that even those that have adapted to society may completely at random do something completely shocking - such as your example of killing prostitutes.

John Nutt said...

@Zhawq Part 2
"Yes, psychopathy is a spectrum not a fixed one-size-fits-all condition. " I have a question about this where do "ordinary" criminals fits on this spectrum (if at all). The ordinary criminal like the psychopath has no social conscience but on the other they can form genuine bonds to other people (such as family members and people in their gang). Also their criminal acts always have a benefit to them - unlike the psychopath who can throw away everything he has earned doing some bizarre antisocial act. Also we have all seen these "ex gangster" types that have left crime and now have projects to help steer the youths away from a life of crime. Somehow I can't see anyone claiming they have given up being a psychopath.

"Side note: I too have the genetic neurological traits, and I also have the good natured character, but I completely lack any form of supportive advice or friendliness in my childhood." According to fallon some psychopaths come out of the womb like it (they are born without a certain gene or something I think Fallon said) while others have the genetic predisposition and are severely abused very early in life.

"Fallon is most certainly impulsive. But again, he is also good natured and is currently working with the tendencies his impulsiveness brings about." Well he is not antisocial at all and says he is able to resist his impulses.

"Sam Vaknin is a psychopath, there's no two ways about it. " Vaknin seems to be quite evasive on the issue of whenever he is a psychopath or not - psychopath is not a good thing to have on your CV. Usually he says he is a narcissist with strong psychopathic traits or he uses this term "psychopathic narcissist". But I agree he is a full fledged psychopath and I think he uses these terms to make it seem he is a "psychopath lite" or something. I have heard him interviewed where it was clear his "mask" had slipped and you could clearly observe his lack of conscience.
"His narcissism may be of a higher degree, but that does not mean his psychopathy is anywhere near borderline. However, as far as I can tell, he has never been physically violent in any serious way, if at all - but this is the same for countless psychopaths." His psychopathy is comorbid with the narcissistic and schizoid personality disorders - which makes him a very odd hybrid. It's true also he has never been physically violent but can be extremely psychological abusive. one antidote that Vaknin gives is when he was a child he psychological tortured another kid -whose family were killed in the holocaust - was completely programmable by Vaknin and later ended up in a mental home - as the result of Vaknins psychological abuse and control.

SelenaMeeka said...

This kind of hit home for me. I'm not a psychopath, but having a mental illness myself people are always so fucking quick to judge. No matter how accepting they seem, they always think I'm capable of doing bad things. Yes, I'm schizophrenic. Yes, I can do bad things. Yes, I should have had another example here. But the point is that I choose to be a bitch or a sweetheart. Just because I am labeled with a disorder doesn't mean I'm a bad person. If a computer can't tell the difference between a psychopath's brain and a "normal" brain, then how is it fair for someone to label people who have certain disorders as being evil?

That's my two cents, for what it's worth. And if it's not worth anything I want my damned pennies back. This economy is shit and I need to save every one I get.

Not sorry for my lame ass humor. >:)

SelenaMeeka

Anonymous said...


"How constant the need for stimulation is varies between individuals..."

How will you get the stimulation you need, Zhawq? And when you don't get it, do you have a plan as to how you will deal with it? Or do you feel a lack of stimulation could overcome your better judgement and any plans you have made to cope with it?

It's unavoidable that life will have periods where it is routine, dull or uninspiring, and that's why I think you would be wise to anticipate your reactions in advance.

Excellent post. Hope you will continue to write.

Anonymous said...

"I dug my way through it and came out at the other end. I now have a choice, I am no longer a victim of an abusive and neglectful childhood."

Good for you! I did the same, only I come from the opposite end of the spectrum you mentioned in your post. It feels good to be free, instead of being influenced by something that was controlling our choices and behavior, doesn't it? Now we're free to make our own choices, and to take full responsibility for them.

"I think there's one more thing that is very important: To be understood and to be given guidance that you can emotionally relate to."

Zhawq, I think you've articulated something that's very significant! Parents, teachers, therapists, whomever, expect a psychopath to think and act like a non-psychopath, and will not accept anything 'less' (different) than that. They should stop wasting their time (and stop driving psychopaths into a frustrated rage) by dealing with the reality of who the individual is and what their specific challenges are. The focus could then be placed on helping the psychopath deal with boredom or impulsiveness or a lack of empathy in a positive and productive way. I think that might be what you were saying.

I agree that James Fallon's disclosures have been valuable. I read that his wife is pleased. She said he's being more considerate now. I think she's a good example of that understanding you spoke of. She understands and accepts what and who he is, and is very appreciative of the fact that he is trying to make some changes that make life better for himself and his family. He's had some good success with it. It's taken a concerted effort on his part, but becoming a neuroscientist took concerted effort, too.

You've obviously developed quite a bit of self-insight. That's a challenge for all of us. We all have regrets about the past, but what matters most is who we are today.

Anonymous said...

Hey Zhawq,
Just got done reading "The Righteous Mind" by Jonathan Haidt. Recommending you give er a go? Great studies demonstrate the dichotomy of cognition vs emotion. You used the specifics to elaborate on ur appreciation or experience of nature being of cognitive, not emotional foundation.

You might be surprised w/the outcome of recent studies that present the idea that cognition & emotion are NOT done separately of the other. To still believe they are independent facets of thinking is .... after the facts are in ... May border on ignorance? (not stupidity, mind you .. just UN-enlightened) thinking.

Intuitions (which include emotions) ARE a FORM of cognition. They, and emotions, are simply not a form of reasoning.

..... but I guess rather than elaborate, I'll leave it at suggesting the book. His work, not mine. Thought of you, and other family members (sic .. the currently incarcerated many on ex's side, whom u know I don't "label" as "bad") when reading ;) Fascinating!

~ Dreama

Zhawq said...

John Nutt,

you wrote: "so all psychopaths level of satisfaction is different then?"

Yes, of course. We are individuals just like other people. We do share certain traits, but how and how strongly those traits manifest differs between individuals.

"it seems those psychopaths whose need for simulation is low are much easier to deal with and much more programmable"

Not necessarily. There are other factors to consider such as intelligence, schooling/education, upbringing, personal values and belief system or lack thereof, what are his personality traits as an individual, and how much does this person have to loose i.e. how strongly is he likely to defy attempts to program/change him... All that, and more makes it impossible to say how difficult or easy it will be to 'program' any particular individual. All we can say is that it will definitely be more difficult to change a psychopath than it would be a neurotypical person.

"the big difficulty with the psychopaths is that they are unpredictable"

I understand what you're saying, but for me it is not difficult to read and predict psychopaths, though it's just as easy to read and predict normal people. There will be exceptions in both groups, of course.

Zhawq said...

John Nutt (part 2),

you wrote:
"where do "ordinary" criminals fits on [the psychopathy] spectrum?"

I don't know how many of the ordinary criminals are psychopaths, but I can say that psychopaths make up approximately 20% of the inmate population in the prison system.

Ordinary criminals mostly fit into a category called Antisocial Personality Disorder. They're not psychopaths.

People with Antisocial Personality Disorder and Sociopaths make up approximately 85% of the inmate population within the prison system.

The two groups, ASPD'ers and Sociopaths, overlap.

So because they fit into the two largest inmate categories - Sociopaths and people with ASPD - it is difficult to estimate a percentage of 'ordinary criminals' in the prison system. And since the prison system is the basis from which data have been derived, it is also difficult to say much more about their position on the psychopathy scale except for the fact that they don't belong there.

There are a few common loose definitions of Sociopathy, but I find Robert Hare's school to be the most useful. He categorizes Sociopaths as people who are basically normal, but who have been born into a criminal sub-culture. This can be the Mafia, a family of dysfunctioning small time crooks, a cult that condones abusive methods to do their god's bidding, or a 'movement' that uses terrorism in an attempt to overturn Western culture and gain global power (though this latter "group" attracts a lot of abused and neglected, very angry young psychopaths).

Another factor to keep in mind is that not all serious crimes are committed by psychopaths, but because I was mostly isolated or in a special wing for psychopaths who had committed serious crimes, I can't get any more specific because I haven't had the opportunity to observe the common prison population very often.

I hope you can find some useful bits in spite of the vagueness of my reply.

Zhawq said...

John Nutt (part 2 continued),

you wrote:
"their criminal acts always have a benefit to them - unlike the psychopath who can throw away everything he has earned doing some bizarre antisocial act."

I'm aware that this is how it looks to other people, but I assure you that a psychopath will never do something that doesn't benefit him in some way or other. The reason why this seems so much at odds with the reality of the bizarre and seemingly non-sensible acts/crimes that psychopaths sometimes engage with, is that the non-psychopath doesn't understand how a psychopath evaluates benefit and loss.

An example: A psychopath who has lived until his mid-forties, who has gained wealth and social position, has a wife and kids and grand-kids, suddenly commits murder on somebody he has never met before. He doesn't steal anything, he doesn't seem to have any motive.

But to the psychopath there is plenty of motive. From a young age he has had a fascination with the idea of getting away with murder. Most psychopaths don't act on such a fascination, but in this case we have a psychopath who has a very strong need for stimulation, and he has dulled this need for most of his life by throwing himself into business adventures, gaining power and position.

But now he has done all there is to do. He might be able to go further, but it would be a repetition of what he's already done. His need for stimulation begins to rise beyond the boundaries of what aggressive business can dull, and he begins to engage with his old childhood fantasy again. One day he decides he's fed up with the life he's lead until now, and here's another thing about psychopaths: We don't suffer to the same degree that normal people do when freedom is taken away from us and we're in prison.

To the psychopath in our story the idea of going to prison is not as threatening as the prospect of being stuck in his current situation, and prison may in fact be an interesting experience. At this point it is really just a matter of choosing between getting the gratification of a lifetime and taking what comes with it, or remain in a situation where you feel that you might as well be dead. In such a situation, for a psychopath almost anything can seem better than doing nothing.

"Somehow I can't see anyone claiming they have given up being a psychopath."

lol. It isn't possible to stop being a psychopath if you were born with the genetic makeup.

However, it is very much possible to stop committing crimes, and in fact, those turned around criminals that you mention are more often than not psychopaths, and this is because non-psychopaths get hardwired into living a particular lifestyle on a deeper level than a psychopath does. This is why psychopaths are known for their ability to attain completely new identities and begin to live a new lifestyle with almost seamless ease (obviously a lot of study must be invested first, but believe me, studying something and living it are two VERY different things).

Again, how capable a psychopath is in this regard differs. But mostly, if the incentive is there, a psychopath can do it if he has the proper intelligence level and a bit of pre-learned skill.

Zhawq said...

John Nutt (part 2 continued),

you wrote:
"Vaknin seems to be quite evasive on the issue of whenever he is a psychopath or not - psychopath is not a good thing to have on your CV."

Well, he has it. If you haven't already, check out a video titled 'I, Psychopath', you can find it on Youtube.

"I have heard him interviewed where it was clear his "mask" had slipped and you could clearly observe his lack of conscience."

Yes? I have mostly watched his own videos and a few interviews, but apparently I haven't come across the one you mention. I'd like to watch it, so it would be nice if you can still find the URL or the video title?

"His psychopathy is comorbid with the narcissistic and schizoid personality disorders - which makes him a very odd hybrid."

I don't know if Sam Vaknin is schizoid. I guess it's a possibility. How did you come to that conclusion?

I haven't heard the story from his childhood, but I'm not surprised. I'm also not proud to say that it triggers memories from my own life, childhood as well as later on. But I assure you I wouldn't do that today - especially not to my Readers.

I have vowed to treat people respectfully and to not do anything to harm anyone, and I take my promises very seriously - always have.

The only exception would be in the case that someone tries to hurt me, or my Readers (in that event I don't care who it is and if they're also my Reader or not, but it has only happened once....Uhm, the guy's in a mental institution). People who come here with honest intentions have absolutely nothing to fear from me.

John Nutt said...

Zhawq part 1

"Not necessarily. There are other factors to consider such as intelligence, schooling/education, upbringing, personal values and belief system or lack thereof, what are his personality traits as an individual, and how much does this person have to loose i.e. how strongly is he likely to defy attempts to program/change him... All that, and more makes it impossible to say how difficult or easy it will be to 'program' any particular individual. All we can say is that it will definitely be more difficult to change a psychopath than it would be a neurotypical person" I think we can at least say such a psychopath - whose need for simulation and impulsivity is low - is much easier to predict.

"for me it is not difficult to read and predict psychopaths, though it's just as easy to read and predict normal people. There will be exceptions in both groups, of course." Well it's impossible to know what anyone is going to do next - even your self - let alone a psychopath who functions in society -has no criminal record or history of violence or anything - and then suddenly rapes and murders a prostitute.


"There are a few common loose definitions of Sociopathy, but I find Robert Hare's school to be the most useful. He categorizes Sociopaths as people who are basically normal, but who have been born into a criminal sub-culture. This can be the Mafia, a family of dysfunctioning small time crooks, a cult that condones abusive methods to do their god's bidding, or a 'movement' that uses terrorism in an attempt to overturn Western culture and gain global power (though this latter "group" attracts a lot of abused and neglected, very angry young psychopaths" Hare's definition of sociopath is the same as what Cleckley called in the mask of sanity the "ordinary criminal". Also this could be problematic in that their is no way to be sure these people are not psychopaths and whether their behaviour is caused mostly by genes (as in the case of the psychopath) or whether environmental factors are much important (cultural conditioning, dysfunctional family, traumatic life experience, brain damage etc).


"To the psychopath in our story the idea of going to prison is not as threatening as the prospect of being stuck in his current situation, and prison may in fact be an interesting experience. At this point it is really just a matter of choosing between getting the gratification of a lifetime and taking what comes with it, or remain in a situation where you feel that you might as well be dead. In such a situation, for a psychopath almost anything can seem better than doing nothing." This reminds me of something Charles Manson said in an interview "I already had that world, the money ,the women ,the big houses the fame, I realised this was a even bigger prison than the 1 I just got out of". (Not an exact quote but something to that effect).

John Nutt said...

Zhawq part 2


"lol. It isn't possible to stop being a psychopath if you were born with the genetic makeup" That's my point being a psychopath is Who you are - it's fundamental to your personality - it's not something you do as a job or hobby or a lifestyle choice.

"however, it is very much possible to stop committing crimes, and in fact, those turned around criminals that you mention are more often than not psychopaths, " Certainly they can stop committing crime but not because they grew a conscience and felt remorse and thought their criminal past was a mistake to learn from, but because they got bored of that life and no longer felt they got anything out of it.

"This is why psychopaths are known for their ability to attain completely new identities and begin to live a new lifestyle with almost seamless ease (obviously a lot of study must be invested first, but believe me, studying something and living it are two VERY different things)." Yes that of course is because the core essence of the psychopathic condition is that they don't have any real personality or conscience and are essential Chameleons that adapt to reflect their social environment.

"Well, he has it. If you haven't already, check out a video titled 'I, Psychopath', you can find it on Youtube" Yes I have seen it and even Hare himself commented on how high Vaknin's score on the psychopath checklist was. But it seems Vaknin is not keen to advertise himself as a psychopath - I have never heard him say I am a fully fledged psychopath the most I have heard him say is he is a "borderline psychopath".

"Yes? I have mostly watched his own videos and a few interviews, but apparently I haven't come across the one you mention. I'd like to watch it, so it would be nice if you can still find the URL or the video title?" On YouTube its called - INTERVIEW Hitler, the Jews, and Israel http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eIZv9QwoQVc in it vaknin says things such as everything is about is about 2 things 1 is wealth the other is power. He says all wars are controlled by the elites to get those 2 things and if a war happens some people have to die - but don't people die every day in car accidents and whatever vaknin replies at 1 point to a question about the people that die in wars. He shows to me his lack of conscience and that to him other people are just objects to be used to serve his purposes - with the world as a battleground between the material interests of the elites and the "common people" (as Vaknin says) are just paws on a chess board to further the interests of "the elite".


"I don't know if Sam Vaknin is schizoid. I guess it's a possibility. How did you come to that conclusion?" Vaknin was diagnosed as schizoid by a mental health evaluation (as a condition of his parole) he describes himself as schizoid. Here is a couple from him on this if your interested
The Lonely Narcissist http://samvak.tripod.com/narcissistlonely.html Grandiosity and Intimacy: The Roots of Paranoia (go down to "the paranoid schizoid solution" http://samvak.tripod.com/journal60.html

"I have vowed to treat people respectfully and to not do anything to harm anyone, and I take my promises very seriously - always have." Yes all your replies to me at least have been very good and respectful.

Anonymous said...

I saw an other video about James Fallon and his Psychopathy. In this Video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXMnc2Xjj-o) a psychologist says that James Fallon has not to be a Psychopath because of this behaviour. You (Zawqu) said, that you can mostely spot another Psychopath. Would you say James Fallon is a psychopath and why? Btw if James Fallon is one, for me this video is a prove how psychopath know how to behave to seem sympathic to other people. The psychologist seems arrogant to me, while James Fallon is the complete opposite. I'd be very glad if you respond to my post Zhawqu.

Greetings.

Zhawq said...

SelenaMeeka,

you wrote:
"No matter how accepting they seem, they always think I'm capable of doing bad things"

People are suspicious of most minorities and they're suspicious of what they don't understand. They have this need to vilify those who are different from the norm, and obviously that is not just psychopaths.

Schizophrenics may suffer more from this unjustified bias than most other minorities because there have been cases where the illness lead to horrible acts, and it is because these rare cases have some similarities with the possibly less rare cases of the same sort committed by psychopaths that people mix up psychopathy and schizophrenia.

"Yes, I'm schizophrenic. Yes, I can do bad things."

And yes, so can normal people...

"Just because I am labeled with a disorder doesn't mean I'm a bad person."

...But they need to have a picture of themselves as 'the good guys'. Couple that with the tendency to label things in black and white and you have a very 'bad' result.

"the point is that I choose to be a bitch or a sweetheart."

Not all schizophrenics feel they have a choice, but you probably know more about that than I do.

"If a computer can't tell the difference between a psychopath's brain and a "normal" brain"

It can (with the aid of scanning facilities). The problem so far is that nobody have understood that having a psychopathic brain doesn't mean you also have an evil, antisocial person.

"then how is it fair for someone to label people who have certain disorders as being evil?"

That's exactly what I mean. -- And I like your humor. '~L^,

Zhawq said...

Anon Jan. 15. 11:38AM:

"How will you get the stimulation you need, Zhawq? And when you don't get it, do you have a plan as to how you will deal with it?"

I've had many plans about how to deal with it. Sometimes it's enough to go out and mess with some people's heads, or do it online, but there are times when the sense of deprivation is too intense, and in those situations there's really only one thing I can do in my current situation: I use sleeping pills, knock myself out.

"Excellent post. Hope you will continue to write."

Thank you. I would like to post more often, but I do have a lot of things to attend to, and lately my situation has become somewhat strained economically, so it can't be helped that there will be some inconsistency. Most of my long term Readers know this, and I hope new Readers will understand as well.

Zhawq said...

Anon Jan. 15, 12:18PM,

"It feels good to be free, instead of being influenced by something that was controlling our choices and behavior, doesn't it?"

Well, I never felt controlled in the sense that I think you mean, but I did feel hindrance from narrow minded surroundings because I didn't understand why they were so attached to their values that they couldn't be open to learn something new. Understanding this has made all the difference.

In an upcoming article (not the next, but soon) I will explain further how my journey from a start with being gradually more and more extremely (<-- some would say) antisocial through finally gaining some crucial understanding - thanks to some ground breaking new discoveries in the psychopathy research community and to the internet - which has changed how I look at things and taken the edge off my frustrations.

"Parents, teachers, therapists, whomever, expect a psychopath to think and act like a non-psychopath"

Well, at least we do indulge them with the latter - for the most part.

"They should stop wasting their time (and stop driving psychopaths into a frustrated rage) by dealing with the reality of who the individual is"

The problem with this is that they don't know when they're dealing with a child who have the psychopath genetics. They don't see children as real individuals, in actuality most people believe all people are pretty much the same, and so if someone does something they don't like, it must be because that person is evil or because he doesn't want to understand the teacher's/parent's/society's values.

"..and what their specific challenges are."

They understand challenges to a degree, but not within the scope of psychopathy, or even just being at the far end of 'normal' (ref. 'nerds' or disruptive students).

".. I think that might be what you were saying."

It is.

"..his wife is pleased. .. I think she's a good example of that understanding you spoke of."

Fallon is very lucky that he has had people around him who did the opposite of what so many of us have been subjected to.

"You've obviously developed quite a bit of self-insight. That's a challenge for all of us."

Indeed it is.

"We all have regrets about the past"

I don't think this is the case for me. My main regrets are that I didn't get a chance to learn things sooner, but isn't that always the case when knowledge is being kept from you?

"what matters most is who we are today."

So many 'normal' people love this notion. Yet they don't live it, and this fact has a lot to answer for if we're talking about some of the bad things I've done.

I would like very much to learn more about your own experience in this regard. If you don't like to share this in public, please email me. '^L^,

Zhawq said...

Dreama wrote:

"You used the specifics to elaborate on ur appreciation or experience of nature being of cognitive, not emotional foundation."

I don't know where you have this from, but I haven't said anything of the kind. I believe the nature of nature is both cognitive and emotional. As for it's foundation, nobody knows what it is, all we can do is speculate.

"You might be surprised w/the outcome of recent studies that present the idea that cognition & emotion are NOT done separately of the other."

I don't see why this would surprise me. It's what I've been saying all along.

"Intuitions (which include emotions) ARE a FORM of cognition. They, and emotions, are simply not a form of reasoning."

Cognition and emotion overlap and depend on on another, that's why it is such a difficult subject to introduce to others. But to put it simply: You cannot form a single thought without emotion being involved in one way or another. We wouldn't be here without emotion, but we also wouldn't be here without cognition.

Zhawq said...

John Nutt (Jan. 17, 3:25AM),

you wrote:
"I think we can at least say such a psychopath - whose need for simulation and impulsivity is low - is much easier to predict."

On the contrary. Since he is less ruled by an emotional need for stimulation is often much better at biding his time and wait for the right time to commit a crime (f.ex.), because his frustration tolerance is higher and it takes longer for it to reach it's limit.

"it's impossible to know what anyone is going to do next - even your self - let alone a psychopath"

You can be better or worse at making an educated guess, and that's basically what we do. But it works, and that's why we call it prediction: Foretelling the possible near future.

"Hare's definition of sociopath is the same as what Cleckley called in the mask of sanity the "ordinary criminal"."

Yes. They didn't have the body of research that enables us to make further distinctions. Also, there are many people who still think of sociopathy and ASPD as the same thing.

"Also this could be problematic in that their is no way to be sure these people are not psychopaths"

You can easily establish via brain scans, psychological assessment, and observation of behavior plus referencing to their past, if they're psychopaths or not.

"and whether their behaviour is caused mostly by genes (as in the case of the psychopath)"

Genetics always play a role.

"whether environmental factors are much important."

Did you mean to say "...more important", not 'much important'?

In the case of marginal minorities in the human species, these will always be somewhat more influenced by genetics than by environment, simply because their nature is to be at one end of the human scale. But that is not to say it isn't possible if effort on a basis of in-depth knowledge and understanding is put into it. Still, there will always be exceptions, individuals who can't be reached.

This reminds me of something Charles Manson said in an interview "I already had that world, the money ,the women ,the big houses the fame, I realised this was a even bigger prison than the 1 I just got out of"."

I can imagine him saying something like that. '^L^,

Zhawq said...

John Nutts (Jan. 17, 3:27AM)

you wrote:
"That's my point being a psychopath is Who you are - it's fundamental to your personality - it's not .. a job or hobby or a lifestyle choice. It doesn't make sense"

It is What I am, not Who I am.

If: Zhawq = Psychopath,
then: Psychopath = Zhawq.
But: Zhawq = NOT [other psychopath's name],
and: [other psychopath's name] = NOT Zhawq.
Ergo: Zhawq = NOT psychopath,
because: Psychopath = a condition/personality type,
and: Zhawq = NOT a condition/personality type.
Zhawq = Zhawq,
and: Psychopath = NOT Zhawq.
Therefore people do not address Zhawq as Mr. Psychopath but as Mr. Zhawq.

Does that make sense?

"they can stop committing crime but not because they grew a conscience and felt remorse.."

True, but that isn't the point.

"..and thought their criminal past was a mistake to learn from"

Not entirely so. I do look at certain crimes as mistakes, and I look at all my crimes as something to learn from. Much of it isn't very useful anymore, but I don't think it will help anybody to feel bad about it. Better to move on and make the best of what lies ahead.

"..but because they got bored of that life and no longer felt they got anything out of it."

Again, a truth with modifications. If you're good at what you do, and what you do is criminal, you may be able to gain from it continuously.

But the boredom part is correct, though the word boredom may be a little too weak to really cover the depth of frustration that usually is involved when someone dismisses decades of hard work, family and social privileges in order to renew a sense of being alive.

"Yes that of course is because the core essence .. is that they don't have any real personality.."

Yep.

"..or conscience"

What does conscience have to do with start a new life?

"INTERVIEW Hitler, the Jews, and Israel http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eIZv9QwoQVc"

Thank you.

Wealth and power are universal in human pursuit, also when the pursuit takes the form of strive for spiritual enlightenment.

One thing I respect Vaknin for is his honesty about his feelings, motivations, and views. I don't think I've seen anybody else be quite as frank even when he's describing things he know people view as taboo.

As for common people as pawns on a chess board, that is almost a universally agreed fact. When people don't like hearing me say this, I try to explain it isn't personal - or at least it isn't personal to the individual common person. Usually they realize I can be a pretty cool person to hang out with, not to mention I'm a very good ally and loyal to those who are loyal to me.

Vaknin was diagnosed as schizoid by a mental health evaluation [and] describes himself as schizoid. Here is a couple from him on this if your interested
The Lonely Narcissist http://samvak.tripod.com/narcissistlonely.html Grandiosity and Intimacy: The Roots of Paranoia (go down to "the paranoid schizoid solution" http://samvak.tripod.com/journal60.html"


Thanks, I appreciate it.

"all your replies to me at least have been very good and respectful."

I'm glad to know that you think so. '^L^,

John Nutt said...

Part 1
"On the contrary. Since he is less ruled by an emotional need for stimulation is often much better at biding his time and wait for the right time to commit a crime (f.ex.), because his frustration tolerance is higher and it takes longer for it to reach it's limit" Yes and no , yes in the sense of predicting whether he/she will commit a particular criminal act - in that sense they are unpredictable (but this true of everyone not just psychopaths). But in the sense of general behaviour then they are very predictable.

"it's impossible to know what anyone is going to do next - even your self - let alone a psychopath"

"You can be better or worse at making an educated guess, and that's basically what we do. But it works, and that's why we call it prediction: Foretelling the possible near future." Sure this is true of general normal human reactions and psychology but not of predicting very specific criminal acts (such as rape and murder of a prostitute by someone who has no history of violence, no criminal record, no nothing by a well regarded squeaky clean member of society).

"Yes. They didn't have the body of research that enables us to make further distinctions. Also, there are many people who still think of sociopathy and ASPD as the same thing." Yes I personal cannot see any difference between sociopath and ASPD, sociopath or "the classic criminal" just seems to be layman's terms for a person with ASPD.


"You can easily establish via brain scans, psychological assessment, and observation of behavior plus referencing to their past, if they're psychopaths or not." Yes it might be easy for the experts in the areas of psychopathy and criminality but it's not easy for the man in the street, the media and police.


"Genetics always play a role." Yes obviously it must always play a role but we are interested in whether they are a direct cause or just a background condition.

"Did you mean to say "...more important", not 'much important'?" Yes

"In the case of marginal minorities in the human species, these will always be somewhat more influenced by genetics than by environment, simply because their nature is to be at one end of the human scale. But that is not to say it isn't possible if effort on a basis of in-depth knowledge and understanding is put into it. Still, there will always be exceptions, individuals who can't be reached." Well if these marginal minorities anti social behaviour and views are more the result of genes than environment then that would mean they are psychopaths no?

John Nutt said...

Part 2

"It is What I am, not Who I am.Does that make sense?" Yes it would have been easier just to say I am an individual psychopath.

"True, but that isn't the point." It is the point because they fundamentally have not changed -they just put on a new costume (so to speak).


"Not entirely so. I do look at certain crimes as mistakes, and I look at all my crimes as something to learn from. Much of it isn't very useful anymore, but I don't think it will help anybody to feel bad about it. Better to move on and make the best of what lies ahead." In a purely rational way yes possible - but their is not any real deep change in the person or any genuine insights and remorse and regret, just "Better to move on make the best of what lies ahead" like you say.


"If you're good at what you do, and what you do is criminal, you may be able to gain from it continuously." Yeah I was speaking about those who have left a life of crime though.

"But the boredom part is correct, though the word boredom may be a little too weak to really cover the depth of frustration that usually is involved when someone dismisses decades of hard work, family and social privileges in order to renew a sense of being alive." Hellish frustration or something like that would probably be a better way to describe this.

"What does conscience have to do with start a new life?" Because a conscience is necessary to have values, loyalties and to form emotional bonds to other human beings. That is why a psychopath can very easily take on a entirely new life - because he lacks conscience - and all those things that come with it.

"Wealth and power are universal in human pursuit, also when the pursuit takes the form of strive for spiritual enlightenment." Sure but vaknin has no problem with starting wars to serve your interest and no concern for the people who die in them "don't people die everyday in car accidents". This is very psychopathic.

"One thing I respect Vaknin for is his honesty about his feelings, motivations, and views. I don't think I've seen anybody else be quite as frank even when he's describing things he know people view as taboo." I also like Vaknin for his brutal honesty about how he views the world. That is why I Linked that video because it shows a glimpse into his mind. while in his others he talks about how he views others as tools to manipulate for his own purposes and how he looks immediately for the chinks in a person's armour - so as to extract what he wants from them, you don't actually see him doing this in practice while in that video you saw how he actually does think.

"As for common people as pawns on a chess board, that is almost a universally agreed fact." To the psychopathic elites it might be.

"When people don't like hearing me say this, I try to explain it isn't personal - or at least it isn't personal to the individual common person." Nothing is personal to psychopaths like the psychopath gangsters in the Godfather movies say "It's not personal - it's just business". How do you view this fact though (since you are not in the "elite crowd"?)

" Usually they realize I can be a pretty cool person to hang out with, not to mention I'm a very good ally and loyal to those who are loyal to me." Yes I have heard that they can be fun to hang around with - if they like you and at least at the beginning.

Zhawq said...

John Nutt:

"Yes and no , yes in the sense of predicting whether he/she will commit a particular criminal act - in that sense they are unpredictable (but this true of everyone not just psychopaths). But in the sense of general behaviour then they are very predictable"

No. You can't tell when such a person will switch from 'general' behavior to bloody crime, that's why he's unpredictable. Parting the two doesn't make sense, they overlap.

"this is true of general normal human reactions and psychology but not of predicting very specific criminal acts"

...Unless you are well educated and experienced in such matters. This is a subject that is being studied as we speak: How can we get better at spotting tell tale signs. It's not a matter of something being impossible, it is much more a matter of people in our day being out of touch with members of their own family. If you're close to someone you'll be able to tell when something is wrong - if you pay attention to them - and you may be able to (help) prevent disasters with some education and guidance.

In the case of a psychopath, who has no tell tale signs in the ordinary sense of the word, it is no different, except for that one thing I'm trying to point out all the time: If we want to prevent a psychopathic youth from developing into a highly antisocial person, we need more education about psychopathy out in the communities, into people's homes (after all, psychopaths grow up living in people's homes, we're part of you).

"I personal cannot see any difference between sociopath and ASPD"

This is something I have heard very often, and understandably so. I'll explain it to you, but it'll be a bit long, and it's an important topic, so I'm going to discuss it in an article so others have easier access to it.

"it's not easy for the man in the street, the media and police."

Important things are rarely easy, but they have to be done - if necessary with the aid of someone who has a more extensive education or expertise.

"we are interested in whether they are a direct cause or just a background condition."

Again, the genetics is the basis for the emotional differences (or deficiencies, if you) in a psychopath. Abuse and neglect during upbringing is basis for antisocial behavior (in some form or another - even in the cases where people say "My parents were very normal, my childhood was happy". There's more to it, it isn't back and white. Quoting above: It is difficult).

"if these marginal minorities anti social behaviour and views are more the result of genes than environment then that would mean they are psychopaths no?"

You have misunderstood me. It's the other way around: Antisocial behavior is not caused by genetics but by social factors.

Zhawq said...

Anon, Jan. 17., 4:28PM,

As far as I can see, Fallon is what he says he is. Let me put it this way: There's nothing about him that makes me think he isn't a psychopath. He seems quite genuine to me.

..........
John Nutt,

"Yes it would have been easier just to say I am an individual psychopath."

Of course I'm an individual, and yes, I'm a psychopath. It's what I am, not who I am.

"Who's that over there?"

"Him? That's individual!...He also goes by the word Psychopath"
"Oh, but that's who I am too!"
"Meet yourself, sir."

"It is the point because they fundamentally have not changed"

It's not important to society how I feel or how I think, it's important how I conduct myself. We all wear costumes, my friend.

"their is not any real deep change in the person or any genuine insights and remorse and regret .. like you say

I can't apply meaning to remorse because I have no experience with that emotion. I can only observe how my actions affect others and adjust accordingly.

"I was speaking about those who have left a life of crime though."

Then I'm not sure what you mean.

"Hellish frustration"

Haha, yes you can call it that.

"Because a conscience is necessary to have values, loyalties and to form emotional bonds to other human beings."

I see what you're saying. We should have values, loyalties, and form bonds with other human beings in the same way that normal people, otherwise it isn't 'real' values, loyalty, or bonds. I don't agree with conformism, John.

"To the psychopathic elites [people as pawns] might be [well known fact]."

It's a fact also to non-psychopaths, a fact that is understandably not well liked.

"in that video you saw how he actually does think"

I agree. The looking for chinks in people's armor is second nature to a psychopath. For me it doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to exploit it, I just like to know that I can - these days I think of it more as a form of self defensive preparation mechanism. But that's not just Sam Vaknin or me, all psychopaths do it.

"How do you view this fact though (since you are not in the "elite crowd"?)"

I guess in part it's because I know from experience I can join that crowd if I want to. Indeed, I'm not entirely sure I've left it yet - my money, though currently frozen, may still be salvageable. But I've always thought of myself as elite, elite isn't only about money or social status, it's also cognitive.

John Nutt said...

Part 1
"No. You can't tell when such a person will switch from 'general' behavior to bloody crime, that's why he's unpredictable. Parting the two doesn't make sense, they overlap." I will make an analogy here, let's imagine that for each day of the impulsive psychopaths life a coin flip determines whether he will commit a shocking act or not, but for a social adapt calculating psychopath a random number draw (of say 20 thousand different numbers) every day of his life determines whether he will do something shocking (on that day). It's very probably (and as a result predictable) that you won't win a lottery but a coin flip is very unpredictable (since the odds are literally 50/50).

"...Unless you are well educated and experienced in such matters. This is a subject that is being studied as we speak:" It's not possible to predict for the same reason a lottery draw is impossible to predict - because it cannot be predicted and it's not possible to do it - not even it principle.

" If you're close to someone you'll be able to tell when something is wrong - if you pay attention to them - and you may be able to (help) prevent disasters with some education and guidance." Their a big difference between been able to tell "something" is wrong with them and correctly guessing that they are planning to slit your throat while you sleep.

"In the case of a psychopath, who has no tell tale signs in the ordinary sense of the word, it is no different," Yes like I said the psychopaths are unpredictable it's also a well known fact that they can fool family members, mental health professionals and even the parole board into thinking they have changed.

"except for that one thing I'm trying to point out all the time: If we want to prevent a psychopathic youth from developing into a highly antisocial person, we need more education about psychopathy out in the communities, into people's homes (after all, psychopaths grow up living in people's homes, we're part of you)." Psychopaths lack conscience and usually have a high need for stimulation (especially when they are younger). So they need understanding and guidance from their family and community to stop them from becoming antisocial and causing harm, is that the solution you are proposing?

John Nutt said...

Part2
"This is something I have heard very often, and understandably so. I'll explain it to you, but it'll be a bit long, and it's an important topic, so I'm going to discuss it in an article so others have easier access to it." Okay I look forward to the article.

"Important things are rarely easy, but they have to be done - if necessary with the aid of someone who has a more extensive education or expertise." I am saying the media and what not label all kinds of people as "psychopaths". From Muslim terrorists to spree shooters like anders Breivik and serial killer like Jeffrey dahmer. though most of the time they are not psychopaths but have other personality or mental disorders (eg Breivik has NPD and ASPD while Dahmer was diagnosed with BPD). So what most people think is psychopathy is actually some other disorder.

"Again, the genetics is the basis for the emotional differences (or deficiencies, if you) in a psychopath. " The underlying condition or psychopathic personality is genetically determined yes.

"Abuse and neglect during upbringing is basis for antisocial behavior (in some form or another - even in the cases where people say "My parents were very normal, my childhood was happy". There's more to it, it isn't back and white. Quoting above: It is difficult)." We know some psychopaths are born like it, for instance the psychopaths in the mask of sanity come from decent (and often wealthy) families with no evidence of abuse or anything. Your explanation sounds like a speculative (and faith based) Freudian type answer.

"You have misunderstood me. It's the other way around: Antisocial behavior is not caused by genetics but by social factors." In psychopaths it has got at least a strong genetic Component to it.

John Nutt said...

I am saying that Your condition is a fundamental part of who you are - just like the genes and brain structures responsible for conscience in empathic people are a fundamental part of who they are. Here is the formula:individual Zhawq, set:psychopath, species:human.

"It's not important to society how I feel or how I think, it's important how I conduct myself." Yes society doesn't care about what goes on in your own mind- so long as you do as you are told and don't cause trouble.

"We all wear costumes, my friend" The psychopath is nothing but a costume though.

"I see what you're saying. We should have values, loyalties, and form bonds with other human beings in the same way that normal people, otherwise it isn't 'real' values, loyalty, or bonds. I don't agree with conformism, John." Yes and this is the biggest issue with the psychopaths and what makes them unpredictable - because they cannot bond or form attachments to any person or principle.

"It's a fact also to non-psychopaths, a fact that is understandably not well liked." The common herd is not aware of these facts - they are mindless sheep - the closest thing they will give you to a reason is "that's what everyone else does" - which says it all.

"I agree. The looking for chinks in people's armor is second nature to a psychopath. For me it doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to exploit it, I just like to know that I can - these days I think of it more as a form of self defensive preparation mechanism. But that's not just Sam Vaknin or me, all psychopaths do it." Yes it's a psychopathic trait.

"I guess in part it's because I know from experience I can join that crowd if I want to. Indeed, I'm not entirely sure I've left it yet - my money, though currently frozen, may still be salvageable." From your blog its sounds like the authorities know all about you and you have spent most of your life in prison, given that why do you think you could just join humanities elite?

"But I've always thought of myself as elite, elite isn't only about money or social status, it's also cognitive." Yes psychopaths have a grandiose sense of self and think they are superior to other people - for example in one of your articles you wrote even a psychopath living in the gutter addicted to drugs and stealing still is grandiose and believes they are superior - even when the reality of their situation says otherwise.

Anonymous said...

Familiar with MBTI ?

Do you know what type you are ?

Im an INTP and I have often considered myself a much better psychopath then my brother. I have just chosen to not be with, in regards of antisocial behaviour. Instead I tend to end in barfights with psychopaths, the mongoloid narc/psycho types who will demand that you dont look at their somatic narcissistic girlfriend, even though she is dancing in front of your face..
Well, I consider fights, or retaliation for my bad upbringing by psychos as pro social behaviour.

I dont start fights. I only have to send them a touchy comment, and then they will, if they feel they are bigger and stronger. Thing is, guys like Alexander, the mauler, Gustavson, wouldn't really look that dangerous on a pub, given some centimeter less of height.
I'm not him though, but I have learned that most serious martial art guys, automatically dont judge their opponents so easily by their hairstyle

Back to MBTI. Would be interesting to know. You kind of sound a bit like an INTX. Jail has probably done you more introverted than in younger times.

Zhawq said...

John Nutt:

"let's imagine that for each day of the impulsive psychopaths life a coin flip determines whether he will commit a shocking [and] for a social adapt calculating psychopath a random number draw (of say 20 thousand different numbers)"

There is no formula for this. All we can say is the more impulsive psychopath is easier to predict than the the less impulsive psychopath.

"It's not possible to predict for the same reason a lottery draw is impossible to predict"

It's not black and white, many variables are at play. sometimes you can predict a person's behavior, sometimes you can't.

"Their a big difference between been able to tell "something" is wrong with them and correctly guessing that they are planning to slit your throat while you sleep."

I can hardly disagree with that. :)

"it's also a well known fact that they can fool family members, mental health professionals and even the parole board"

True that.

"they need understanding and guidance from their family and community to stop them from becoming antisocial and causing harm"

That is indeed what I am saying, yes.

Side mote: There are a lot more (alienated) psychopaths in terrorist organisations such as ISIS than there are in non-terrorist communities.

Genetics determine part of one's personality, but not all of it.

"We know some psychopaths are born like it"

Do you?

"Your explanation sounds like a speculative (and faith based) Freudian type answer."

Well guess what, I'm the one who is living it, I'm the one who has recognized little cues in the background of other psychopaths that normal people do not pick up on (for obvious reasons). I respect Hare's studies, but I'm absolutely certain that there's more to it in these many cases of people who had very common, good hearted and flawless families. I've seen too many examples that supports my view on this, and I'm not alone, other researchers - who aren't psychopaths but have the same education that Bob Hare has - agree.

It's a very difficult topic to discuss because it so easily can seem as if we're trying to pull a guilty! on the parents. In reality it may not even be the parents that have the greatest influence on their children, other things play in as well. But nobody turns extremely antisocial for no reason. Nobody becomes a killing sexual sadist without any influence to start such a development.

While Freud did lay the foundation to some of the more modern psychology, I am not a follower of his school. I don't believe potty training creates sexual sadists.

Example: Jeff Dahmer - I know he received other diagnoses besides psychopathy, and I wasn't certain about him to be honest. He lacks some of the more typical characteristics, but... he does show flat affect and little, if any, remorse. These two are the basics, the rest is symptoms.

His sexuality was influenced by his childhood fascination with performing autopsies on dead animals. When we consider that his sexuality developed during a time when he was being bullied at school, AND that his dad wasn't around very much, you get the picture.

I love his dad and don't blame him. But things would've been different if he had been around more so he would've gotten to know his son better and perhaps intervene with the situation at school.

Dahmer's loneliness and anger coupled with developing sexuality lead to the result we have heard about, because he had the two basic traits of a psychopath: FLat affect and poor integration of common mores.

Zhawq said...

John Nutt,

"I am saying that Your condition is a fundamental part of who you are"

You like semantics, don't you? ;)

"The psychopath is nothing but a costume"

I think that's a little harsh, and not entirely accurate. A very popular notion in the average population, though. ^^

"this is the biggest issue with the psychopaths.."

To not agree with conformism isn't psychopathy. It's how you go about the things you don't agree with that matters - and that takes us back to what I've said earlier about education and changing how normative society approaches psychopaths, especially before they develop antisocial thought and behavioral patterns.

"The common herd is not aware of these facts - they are mindless sheep - ... - which says it all."

Perhaps you're right. Maybe I overestimate people. But it's fairly well known among the more educated.

"Yes it's a psychopathic trait."

Correct.

"From your blog its sounds like the authorities know all about you and you have spent most of your life in prison, given that why do you think you could just join humanities elite?"

I think I better let this one pass. ^^

But even if I'm living a poor life at the moment, being elite is also a state of mind. I wasn't born rich and my step parents were upper middle class. Yet I felt I was elite even as a young teen. There are many forms of elite in the world, and I have proven I can join at least some of them.

Having $24 mill on your bank account doesn't make you elite, I'm aware of that. Today you need to make billions in order to be considered rich, but back in the day when I made my first millions I was considered rich, so I have been there. Still, that is not my point, my point is that being elite is a state of mind - a state of mind that you have to prove before you can have that inner knowledge I've mentioned, and I have done exactly that.

"psychopaths have a grandiose sense of self and think they are superior to other people - even when the reality of their situation says otherwise."

This is all true, more or less. My experience with psychopaths is that indeed they do think they're superior to everybody else even when they're obviously not.

I consider myself lucky to never have suffered from this illusion, and I've always had the privilege of being someone who seek up those more knowledgeable than myself because I strive to learn more, understand more, and become a better Me (which is good because I'm a good person). '^L^,

Zhawq said...

Anon, Jan. 21, 12:21PM,

you wrote:
"Familiar with MBTI ?"

I've forgotten what my type is, so I've looked it up so I could take the test again. Here's my result:

ESTP

Variant: ASSERTIVE
Role: EXPLORER

Mind: 73% Extraverted
Energy: 59%Observant
Nature: 65% Thinking
Tactics: 27% Prospecting
Identity: 100% Assertive

Quote: "You are one of the Explorers - a bold and freedom-loving individual who enjoys pushing the limits and exploring the unknown. You are known for your ingenuity, social skills and ability to improvise."

"Im an INTP"

What does INTP stand for?

"I have often considered myself a much better psychopath then my brother."

You and your brother are both psychopaths?

"I have just chosen to not be with, in regards of antisocial behaviour. ... I consider fights, or retaliation for my bad upbringing by psychos as pro social behaviour."

I would probably agree. But common view is that provoking or initiating a fight are both bad, even if it serves to persuade idiot bullies to discontinue their antisocial behaviors. Luckily, in most of the world law enforcement tend to be understanding if they know the nature of the situation.

"guys like Alexander, the mauler, Gustavson"

Who are these people?

"Back to MBTI. You kind of sound a bit like an INTX."

What does INTX stand for?

"Jail has probably done you more introverted than in younger times."

Prison changed me the first time I did time. I was 18 and did 2.8 years and spent the 1.st year in solitary confinement. It's the latter more than anything that changed me, I believe.

I remember being surprised that I didn't feel a rush of joy when I went through the gateway into freedom. I had expected the vast view (no wall blocking a few meters away) to create the famous 'Wow!' sensation, but it didn't. I felt emotionally flat, and that is uncommon for psychopaths. We are emotionally flat to varying degrees, but we don't feel it because we've never known anything else. So when I felt there should've been emotions where now there were none, it was very clearly an effect of being incarcerated and in isolation for so long.

While this sensation as such went away over time, I know it changed me in a lasting way too, but I'm not exactly sure about how it is with that.

This is a good topic for a future article. '^L^,

John Nutt said...

"It's not black and white, many variables are at play. sometimes you can predict a person's behavior, sometimes you can't" Like I said Its not possible to know what anyone is going to do next - not even your self -. In ten thousand years we might have completely mapped the human brain, and be able to predict even the most complex behaviour with a high degree of accuracy but right now year 2015 we don't have any thing anywhere near that.

"Genetics determine part of one's personality, but not all of it." Our core personality traits are genetically determined.

"Do you?" How then do you explain the psychopaths who come from good families with no history of abuse or any trauma or anything? (Such as the psychopaths in the mask of sanity?) Furthermore psychopaths are BORN not made - by definition. They might not be born to kill but for sure they born without a conscience.

"other things play in as well." Like genetics maybe?

"But nobody turns extremely antisocial for no reason. Nobody becomes a killing sexual sadist without any influence to start such a development." According to James fallon (in one of the videos you linked) he saidPsychopaths have malfunctions in the brain areas responsible for stress, impulsivity and aggression. Also he they have low level of the hormones (cortisol responsible for stress reactions, and serotonin). Also he did say the psychopaths genes responsible for stress reactions and empathy are damaged or turned off from when they are in the womb.

" I think that's a little harsh, and not entirely accurate. A very popular notion in the average population, though" You did agree with me before when I said psychopaths have no real personality.

"being elite is also a state of mind." I believe this is called grandiose narcissism in psychology.

"Yet I felt I was elite even as a young teen." When you say you felt elite do you mean you felt inherently superior to other people or that you knew you was destined for greatness or at least you knew you could get to the top if you wanted to?

"There are many forms of elite in the world, and I have proven I can join at least some of them." Fair enough.

"being elite is a state of mind - a state of mind that you have to prove before you can have that inner knowledge I've mentioned, and I have done exactly that" Yes if you have the credentials to back up your elitist feeling then that's fine - though obviously most other people will resent you for it.

Zhawq said...

John Nutt,

"Like I said Its not possible to know what anyone is going to do next - not even your self"

We're running in circles, and you don't understand - or you don't want to understand - what I've been trying to tell you.

"How then do you explain the psychopaths who come from good families with no history of abuse or any trauma or anything?"

Read through my previous replies. You'll also find answers in some of my articles.

"Like genetics maybe?"

You're not trying hard enough, my friend.

"James fallon (in one of the videos you linked) he saidPsychopaths have malfunctions in the brain areas responsible for stress, ..."

That's correct.

"You did agree with me before when I said psychopaths have no real personality."

I like to say that psychopaths don't have a 'real' personality in the ordinary sense of the word, though there's no doubt that psychopaths do have personality traits that vary in between individuals. What I mean to say is that our personalities are typically not fixed to a particular type of role with a particular set of mannerisms, we're more adaptable than normal people and have also a higher ability to understand new, and different viewpoints which we may adopt as part of a changed personality.

Still, this - as everything else we have discussed - differ in between individuals and some are more adaptable than others, just like many psychopaths have certain values that they won't divert from. An example would be one's belief system. Some psychopaths can take on and change belief systems as they please, while to others this is something they consider important to their sense of self, be it religion, politics, or something else.

"I believe this is called grandiose narcissism in psychology"

It's called grandiose sense of self. But some degree of narcissism often follows as a result.

"When you say you felt elite do you mean you felt inherently superior to other people or that you knew you was destined for greatness or at least you knew you could get to the top if you wanted to?"

First and foremost I always felt superior. Destined for greatness, no, I don't think I have a destiny in that sense. But yes, I always had a sense that I could achieve some kind of greatness if I wanted to.

"if you have the credentials.."

I do, but obviously I cannot (and will not) provide these here.

"most other people will resent you for it"

Tell me about it....Such as f.ex. people pulling law suits on me, and the law system letting them get away with it by indicting me and setting a court date, but not giving me notice about it so that I can't show up in court and defend myself, instead I suddenly receive letters telling me I've been sentenced to pay this and that amount that everybody who's involved know I don't owe anyone - not to mention that they know I don't have access to my money, so they know I can't pay.

These are people I never harmed, people I don't even know!!

Even I never did something like that to others and never would (a future article in the series 'The Good Psychopath' will explain how I am, and always have been, with this kind of thing...y'know, the thing we call justice).

Anonymous said...

I might add...

I think "sadism" is a better diagnosis. Because the psychopatic mindset and "lack of emotions", is a byproduct of many a past and happenings. It doesn't become a problem for society as long as one lack the sadistic trait.

I have read some former blogs from you and you may have something like a "curiosness independent of it's consequenses". That might very well be the closes to a psychopath as one gets. A curiosness without borders. Else, one may rather explain acts by sadism, in varying degrees. Like the offended of a crime who wants to see the offender punished. That is sadism too. And narcissism. And lack of empathy and understanding. Etc. What is really the difference ?

Well, again is the law. Not the desires nor the actions. And who sets the law and chooses who deserve to belong to their societies ? Must be some godlike figure. Or at least high on narcissism :op.

I'm just saying. Don't dig too deep into the diagnosis. They seem to be a stamp or grade of how well "society likes you" and of how capable you may be. More than how your mind is really that sick. A "sick" mind doing pro social stuff will not a problem and will never get his or hers truly diagnosis. Right. Even though the reasons for performing is as egocentrical as they can ever be. It will still not be diagnosed. Because, she or he is no "public enemy". "ACTIONS, behaviour". Like James Fallon.

Anonymous said...

"Tell me about it....Such as f.ex. people pulling law suits on me, and the law system letting them get away with it by indicting me and setting a court date, but not giving me notice about it so that I can't show up in court and defend myself, instead I suddenly receive letters telling me I've been sentenced to pay this and that amount that everybody who's involved know I don't owe anyone - not to mention that they know I don't have access to my money, so they know I can't pay."



The police and court system bluff you if they had you believe that everybody is equal.

Narcissism is a relative disease. A narcissist would need a scapegoat or at least someone or some group that is worse off than him, to feel a little satisfied himself. They don't have it within themselves either. They are not very different. They are basically just more and the one in charge.

Then you have the exceptions. All over the line you will meet good people. Give them a smile and tell them you appreciate their existence. :) or sth like that.

Anonymous said...

Did some of you guys ever take this test. Was it 132 I got the first time. Anyhow. After some analyzing of the hard ones, aka solving them all, 145 is max.

You know. They say that around 70 is considered "mentally retarded" and 100 is normal. So being around people with 100, is like forcing a normal to stick around with "retards". And this is what the unemployment office wants in many a case. One of them being mine. It is rather hilarious. Is it my fault that I get annoyed really ? That I get bored ? Hell no. Think is, most of the workers at the unemployment office are around 100 themselves, so it is pretty hard to explain the facts to them. In addition, they probably consider themselves around 120+.

These small matter, they can explain why someone "always felt different from others", better than a "psychopath diagnosis" can.
Keep that in the back of your mind before sentecing youselves to harshly, police.... (As Banks sings in Interpol Lights)
Also keep in mind that it isn't really fair or an achievement to manipulate someone who is compared to you a "retard"

http://mensa.dk/test-din-ik

John Nutt said...

Part 1
"We're running in circles, and you don't understand - or you don't want to understand - what I've been trying to tell you." I understand you're points about spotting the signs of disturbed people and so on, I am simple making these points1) Even in the case that it is clear "something" is wrong with a person this is not strong enough reason (or justification) for locking someone up for something they have not yet done or may never have been planning to do. 2) Often their are not any outward signs of any thing wrong with the person at all let alone signs they are planning extreme acts of violence (as is usually the case with psychopaths).

"Like genetics maybe?"

"You're not trying hard enough, my friend." So for instance consider an extremely impulsive, sexually sadistic serial killer like Richard Ramirez. how I ask can these psychological/ conditioning theories explain the basis of the impulse to rape, torture and kill? You cannot condition such impulses in normal people, why? Because such things are biologically determined (their May well be other factors involved but the roots of such impulses are certainly biological).

"James fallon (in one of the videos you linked) he saidPsychopaths have malfunctions in the brain areas responsible for stress, ..."

That's correct." Fallon also said the genes (or combination of genes or whatever it is) responsible for stress reactions and empathy etc are damaged or switched of in the psychopath and this is determined before they are even born. So what do you think about this?

John Nutt said...

Part 2
"I like to say that psychopaths don't have a 'real' personality in the ordinary sense of the word," Kevin Dutton said with the psychopaths their is no "deep down inside" would you say that is an accurate description?

"What I mean to say is that our personalities are typically not fixed to a particular type of role with a particular set of mannerisms, we're more adaptable than normal people and have also a higher ability to understand new, and different viewpoints which we may adopt as part of a changed personality." Laymen call such people "empty suits" - a person who is all about appearance but with no substance behind it.

"Some psychopaths can take on and change belief systems as they please, while to others this is something they consider important to their sense of self, be it religion, politics, or something else." But psychopaths are driven by self interest no and other people are tools (we touched on this before) to be exploited, so wouldn't a psychopath just abandon say his religion if it served his interest?

"First and foremost I always felt superior. Destined for greatness, no, I don't think I have a destiny in that sense. But yes, I always had a sense that I could achieve some kind of greatness if I wanted to." Does this feeling of superiority come from this sense you can achieve greatness ,power, wealth etc if you want to or is it just more an innate feeling without regard to if you have power or not?

"Tell me about it....Such as f.ex. people pulling law suits on me, and the law system letting them get away with it by indicting me and setting a court date, but not giving me notice about it so that I can't show up in court and defend myself, instead I suddenly receive letters telling me I've been sentenced to pay this and that amount that everybody who's involved know I don't owe anyone - not to mention that they know I don't have access to my money, so they know I can't pay." The rulings of these kangaroo courts is what they call "justice" in the so called free world.

"These are people I never harmed, people I don't even know!!" Maybe the government (or whoever it is) are trying to humiliate you or feel they are "punishing" you for your past or perhaps simple because you are a psychopath.

&Even I never did something like that to others and never would (a future article in the series 'The Good Psychopath' will explain how I am, and always have been, with this kind of thing...y'know, the thing we call justice)." Yes many so called empathic people suddenly forget their lofty principles when they come across people who don't fit into their ideal of what a human being is.

Anonymous said...

Im sorry about posting hot tempered crap yesterday.

It is a problem of mine, and some shit happened again whle at a pub. Being "convicted" and "judged" etc without having done anything. I think I live in hell of a place. It makes me lose my fuse way too often and I have a problem controlling that. It has nothing to do with others. An issue of mine, the roumer I seem to have in this town. Accused when I have done shit, like yesterday. Other times it may be correct, but when one just f try to behave and still are accused when innocent. I dont know. I just have to find a way to handle those things. A better way. So Im sorry for posting bullshit while "on fire".

Anonymous said...

Maybe old reading for you in here. I hadn't seen this one before and found it excellently thoughtful:
http://www.sociopathworld.com/2013/03/sociopaths-moral-nihilists.html

Zhawq said...

Anon, Jan 24, 9:48AM:

"I think "sadism" is a better diagnosis. .. It doesn't become a problem for society as long as one lack the sadistic trait."

Sadism is not a diagnosis, and I can assure you one can commit violent crimes without being driven by sadism. Revenge or greed, or even fear, can be all it takes for someone to become violent.

"A curiosness without borders."

Interesting concept.

"the offended of a crime who wants to see the offender punished. That is sadism too. And narcissism. And lack of empathy and understanding. Etc. What is really the difference ?"

Sadism isn't involved when the drive to survive and retain self respect sets in, and that's the difference. If you don't act when your family/friends are threatened, when your belongings are taken from you, when you become the victim of others' aggression (or sadism), you'll not be able to retain self respect, you'll be the eternal victim who can't defend yourself or others, and that knowledge is all it takes, not sadism.

Believe me, I know the difference because I've acted with both types of motivations in the past.

"I'm just saying. Don't dig too deep into the diagnosis. They seem to be a stamp or grade of how well "society likes you"

Indeed, that's exactly how it is. But that is also why I need to dig as deep as I possibly can, how else will I be able to understand why society thinks the way it does? And how will I be able to adjust my actions in a constructive manner if I don't have a thorough understanding?

You see, I can't do it the way other people do it, by bonding and using empathy. I really do need to understand intellectually, and in my reasoning there's no such thing as understanding things too well.

"A "sick" mind doing pro social stuff will not a problem and will never get his or hers truly diagnosis. Right. Even though the reasons for performing is as egocentrical as they can ever be. It will still not be diagnosed. Because, she or he is no "public enemy". "ACTIONS, behaviour". Like James Fallon."

Exactly, and Fallon is a very good example to show you don't have to be a bad dysfunctioning person even if you have the neurobiological makeup of a psychopath.

Zhawq said...

Anon Jan 24, 9:53 AM:

"The police and court system bluff you if they had you believe that everybody is equal."

Well isn't that the truth, lol. It's hard to fathom that so many people actually do believe such a blatant lie.

"Narcissism is a relative disease."

It's not a disease, it's a personality type (or disorder).

"A narcissist would need a scapegoat or at least someone or some group that is worse off than him, to feel a little satisfied himself."

Yep, that's classic.

"All over the line you will meet good people. Give them a smile and tell them you appreciate their existence. :) or sth like that."

This doesn't classify as narcissism. It's more a need to feel accepted and safe as a member of the group or society. A narcissist would never be satisfied with this.

Zhawq said...

Anon Jan 24, 10:15 AM:

"Did some of you guys ever take this test."

I assume you're referring to the mensa link below? I would recommend people look up Mensa International (google it), or Mensa in your own countries. Mensa's test itself is spatial and non-lingual, so everybody can participate. This is so for the test at your country's site as well, but mensa.dk is only for people of your nationality (and possibly for foreigners residing there).

"Was it 132 I got the first time. Anyhow. After some analyzing of the hard ones, aka solving them all, 145 is max."

If you could join Mensa, then your score was at least 132, yes. To test for an IQ above 145 you'll have to either visit one of the 0.99% societies (google the words 'High IQ Societies') or join mensa and take a test with higher difficulty there, they have many quite varied tests.

"You know. They say that around 70 is considered "mentally retarded" and 100 is normal.

Yeah, so I heard. I was kind of blown away when I heard the normal range is between 185 and 115 in some countries. 90 through 110 is more common, though - and in my opinion also more realistic, but I'm no expert in these matters.

"So being around people with 100, is like forcing a normal to stick around with "retards"."

If you have a high IQ and was never told you're smart or intelligent (perhaps you were told the opposite), then that is what it feels like, and that feeling doesn't go away easily - at least it hasn't for me. I use my intellect to remind myself that 100 IQ'ers really are...not just common, but...normal. And doing it that way works for me, I no longer have disdain for normal people like I used to.

"And this is what the unemployment office wants in many a case. One of them being mine. It is rather hilarious. Is it my fault that I get annoyed really ? That I get bored ? Hell no. Think is, most of the workers at the unemployment office are around 100 themselves, so it is pretty hard to explain the facts to them."

I actually knew someone from your country and I've been there more than once. So I have some feeling of what it's like to live there, and I have to say it isn't exactly the place to go if you want variety and action, nor does it appear to be a welcoming atmosphere for the highly intelligent.

This woman told me that until about maybe 10 yrs ago there was no school for intellectually gifted children. A woman who'd lived in the US and earned a good living, wanted to build such school, but she had to go to court in order to be allowed to do so, and the case dragged out for over two years because there was so much hostility towards the idea.

The common opinion was that highly gifted people shouldn't have the privilege of being schooled in a way that takes their special traits into consideration. Everybody should have the same schooling, the same everything.

And you know what's funny? They insisted that this was because nobody should have it better than others. That's a ridiculous statement because it means that in their system it is the normal, the common majority that is privileged.

More below...

Zhawq said...

Anon jan 24, 10:15 AM, continued...

I don't know if you've heard it, but your country, as small as it is, has the second highest number of people running off to join ISIS. And I think I understand why that is - but it's f*cking sad, man.

"In addition, they probably consider themselves around 120+."

That sounds likely judging from the common aloof disinterested attitude of service people everywhere that I've met there. According to my friend who lived there, people who works for the state really seem to think they can do no wrong, ergo they must be perfect. :)

"These small matter, they can explain why someone "always felt different from others", better than a "psychopath diagnosis" can."

I wouldn't say better, but no doubt just as well. I can also understand why you think this, if you've never been in the shoes of a psychopath, how can you know if, and how much, this makes you feel different? The same goes if you're a psychopath, how can you know how if being highly intelligent can make you feel different? I am both highly intelligent and have the psychopathy diagnosis, and I can tell you that both are things that will make you feel different, but as a psychopath you're more likely to be alienated because you can't bond with people. Even without a high IQ you will tend to use an intellectual approach more than normal people do, and that can sometimes make you seem more intelligent because you learn more, and faster, than they do.

"Also keep in mind that it isn't really fair or an achievement to manipulate someone who is compared to you a "retard""

I have always wondered why people think of themselves as tough guys just because they can beat someone who's smaller and weaker than they are. I've even tried to talk to a few about it, but they just don't get it.

http://mensa.dk/test-din-ik

Zhawq said...

John Nutt:

"Even in the case that it is clear "something" is wrong with a person this is not .. justification for locking someone up. .. 2) Often their are not any outward signs of any thing wrong with the person [nor] signs they are planning extreme acts of violence."

We can certainly agree on that.

"consider an extremely impulsive, sexually sadistic serial killer like Richard Ramirez. how I ask can these psychological/ conditioning theories explain the basis of the impulse to rape, torture and kill?"

Conditioning - or Nurture, as is the phrase usually used in research - alone does not explain his case. He's a psychopath, and in the case of psychopaths there are two basic elements at play, Nurture & Nature (nature is a phrase we use instead of the word genetics when we discuss the Nurture vs Nature theory).

"You cannot condition such impulses in normal people, why? Because such things are biologically determined (their May well be other factors involved but the roots of such impulses are certainly biological)."

You'd be surprised at just how much normal people can be conditioned to do. A very simple experiment was conducted to see if normal, peaceful people could be manipulated into giving a complete stranger electrical shocks. 60% went as far as to give shocks that could've killed a real person, and mind you, they were aware of this but did it anyway because a nice 'scientist' told them he would take responsibility for what they did.

There goes your 'normal people cannot be conditioned' right out the window, buddy. ;)

""James fallon (in one of the videos you linked) he saidPsychopaths have malfunctions in the brain areas responsible for stress, ..."

Call it malfunctions or low functions or differently functioning.

"That's correct."

Yes, it is.

"Fallon also said the genes (or combination of genes or whatever it is) responsible for stress reactions and empathy etc are damaged or switched of in the psychopath and this is determined before they are even born. So what do you think about this?"

I prefer to call it 'switched off'. But yes, I agree with him. This is one of the things I'm trying to tell people with my blog.

John Nutt said...


@Zhawq
"Even in the case that it is clear "something" is wrong with a person this is not .. justification for locking someone up. .. 2) Often their are not any outward signs of any thing wrong with the person [nor] signs they are planning extreme acts of violence."

"We can certainly agree on that." Alright you finally accepted my point that we can't usually predict if someone is about to flip.

"consider an extremely impulsive, sexually sadistic serial killer like Richard Ramirez. how I ask can these psychological/ conditioning theories explain the basis of the impulse to rape, torture and kill?"

"Conditioning - or Nurture, as is the phrase usually used in research - alone does not explain his case. He's a psychopath, and in the case of psychopaths there are two basic elements at play, Nurture & Nature (nature is a phrase we use instead of the word genetics when we discuss the Nurture vs Nature theory)." I am saying the roots of the impulses themselves are biologically based and I am NOT saying other factors are not involved.

"You'd be surprised at just how much normal people can be conditioned to do. A very simple experiment was conducted to see if normal, peaceful people could be manipulated into giving a complete stranger electrical shocks. 60% went as far as to give shocks that could've killed a real person, and mind you, they were aware of this but did it anyway because a nice 'scientist' told them he would take responsibility for what they did." Their is no evidence their that any biologically hard wired drives were overridden. That's just basic human psychology I think - look to authority. They were just ordinary people who were manipulated by an authority figure - they did not become psychopaths. Remember when we talked about sociopaths earlier and you said how they are basically normal people who have being born in a criminal culture?

"There goes your 'normal people cannot be conditioned' right out the window, buddy. ;)" You can condition them within the constraints of their biology. you cannot condition a normal person to be fearless for example as you cannot change a persons genetics, a persons hormone levels and a persons brain structure by conditioning.

"Fallon also said the genes (or combination of genes or whatever it is) responsible for stress reactions and empathy etc are damaged or switched of in the psychopath and this is determined before they are even born. So what do you think about this?"

"I prefer to call it 'switched off'. But yes, I agree with him. This is one of the things I'm trying to tell people with my blog." Well this is what I have been saying all the time the core psychopathic condition or personality (lack of empathy, low anxiety, shallow emotions etc) are genetically determined while how antisocial they are is largely and in most cases a result of nurture. Is that your view as well?

Zhawq said...

John Nutt - continued...

"Kevin Dutton said with the psychopaths their is no "deep down inside" would you say that is an accurate description?"

I can't really dispute his words because I've never been able to observe my 'deep down inside', if I even have one. Dutton can see this better than I (we, psychopaths) can because he presumably has a 'deep down inside' and has therefore something to compare with.

Basically, Kevin Dutton is probably the one of all the current psychopathy experts that I have the most trust in, he hasn't said or written anything (that I know of) which isn't correct.

I'll be publishing an article one of these days (in a couple of weeks) about Kevin Dutton and how to me he's the other of the two people who have backed up my own theory about psychopaths (James Fallon is 'the other').

"Zhawq wrote: "What I mean to say is that our personalities are typically not fixed to a particular type of role, .. we're more adaptable .. and have a high ability to understand new, and different viewpoints which we may adopt"

John wrote: Laymen call such people "empty suits" - a person who is all about appearance but with no substance behind it."


That's because laymen don't see that there must be someone who does the understanding and adopting of that new style or identity.

"psychopaths are driven by self interest .. other people are tools, so wouldn't a psychopath just abandon say his religion if it served his interest?"

I'm saying that it would take a hell of a lot of better self interest to change things that you feel are defining of who you are.

Remember, psychopathy is not a set nor ultimate 'this is' and 'that isn't'. Psychopathy, like the neurotypical, is a spectrum. So while there are traits, the severity of each trait differ within individuals, and even those who score 40 on the PCL-R aren't all one and the same, just as you can't find a group of identical completely normal people.

Self interest and detachment from values (even values that don't require empathy, but which do require sympathy, such as religion or politics) is a normer, it's something that is present to a higher degree in psychopaths than in normal people, but complete detachment from everything at all times is extremely rare.

continues...

Zhawq said...

John Nutt, continued...

I believe self interest drives us all, psychopaths and normal people alike. The difference is that psychopaths don't form bonds, and so they cannot link their self interest directly to that of other people.

"Does this feeling of superiority come from this sense you can achieve greatness ,power, wealth etc if you want to or is it just more an innate feeling without regard to if you have power or not?"

I think it is probably mostly the first. If that wasn't the case I might not have had the drive to act and actually make achievements. So while I did have the feeling to begin with, I think I needed to see it proven, and that was why I put my ambitions into action. I also believe that if I hadn't done this, I wouldn't have been able to uphold the sense of superiority that I originally had.

That said, I've met some psychopaths who didn't have the same drive towards proving themselves but who felt completely at ease with just believing they could do anything.

"The rulings of these kangaroo courts is what they call "justice" in the so called free world."

Nobody calls it justice to abuse the court system to satisfy greed, it's just what they do, and when they say otherwise they're simply lying.

"Maybe the government (or whoever it is) are trying to humiliate you or feel they are "punishing" you for your past or perhaps simple because you are a psychopath."

Yes, I'm aware of it. Still, I find it hard to understand or believe that I can be taken that serious, but there's no doubt that the wish to humiliate and take away anything that I might use to turn things around and create a useful, pro-social life is a big part of what's going on. And it makes no sense, because they're just wasting tax payers' money - I know, I know, they don't really care about the tax payers' money, it's very obvious from how they spend and waste it on bureaucracy, but that's a different matter...

(It almost makes me feel insulted on behalf of the population, though it really shouldn't, for the population doesn't seem to want things any other way. They'll rather be slaves who pay to have their lives ruled in every way by the state than take the risk that it is to take responsibility for your own life.)

"many so called empathic people suddenly forget their lofty principles when they come across people who don't fit into their ideal of what a human being is."

Spot on. And I believe this is one of the tendencies that modern societies should address, because with so large populations and growing internationalization it is important that people learn how to appreciate variety and the fact that not everybody live the same lifestyle or share the same religion, and so on. In a modern world we can't keep clinging to village mentality, it breeds cruelty towards minorities and individuals who happen to have unusual traits and/or skills, and we've already seen what that brings (think Columbine High and others).

Zhawq said...

Anon Jan 25, 3:06 AM:

"Im sorry about posting hot tempered crap yesterday."

That's alright. We all loose it once in a while. I'll delete your rants. ;)

"It is a problem of mine, and some shit happened again whle at a pub. Being "convicted" and "judged" etc without having done anything."

Yeah, that kind of thing can get to you if it happens too often and you can do nothing about it (except leave and find somewhere else to hang your hat).

"when one just f try to behave and still are accused when innocent."

I've had a lot of that, so I know the situation. The only way I have found to deal with it is to leave the area because there's no way anybody will accept you if they've made up their minds that you're bad and there's nothing good about you.

"I dont know. I just have to find a way to handle those things."

I hope you do. You're welcome to email me if you need some more specific advice.

"So Im sorry for posting bullshit while "on fire"."

Hey, don't worry about it. '^L^,

Zhawq said...

Anon 30, 2:11 PM:

"Maybe old reading for you in here. I hadn't seen this one before and found it excellently thoughtful:
http://www.sociopathworld.com/2013/03/sociopaths-moral-nihilists.html"


Thanks for the link. I'll check it out. '^L^,

John Nutt said...


"That's because laymen don't see that there must be someone who does the understanding and adopting of that new style or identity" Robert Hare said the psychopath is a social predator and they can really make you believe that they are something they are not. If he is to believed this "someone" who adopts a new identity is a predator and chameleon that changes identity to adapt to its human environment.

"I'm saying that it would take a hell of a lot of better self interest to change things that you feel are defining of who you are." Alright I see what you're saying psychopaths can have beliefs and at least a sense of identity. But wouldn't the psychopath be invested in a religion, or political cause only because it serves his interests? (Even in the case were he does actually believe in it)

"Self interest and detachment from values (even values that don't require empathy, but which do require sympathy, such as religion or politics) is a normer, it's something that is present to a higher degree in psychopaths than in normal people, but complete detachment from everything at all times is extremely rare" 2 questions 1)Can psychopaths value anything? 2) If a psychopath can value something do you mean in the sense of emotional attachment or in the sense in which I value my car, my computer and so on in which I value them because they are objects and tools which help me achieve my goals?

"I believe self interest drives us all, psychopaths and normal people alike. The difference is that psychopaths don't form bonds, and so they cannot link their self interest directly to that of other people." "they cannot link their self interest directly to that of other people." But surely psychopaths would be able to rationally recognise that working with other people and being loyal to them can benefit them?

"Yes, I'm aware of it. Still, I find it hard to understand or believe that I can be taken that serious, but there's no doubt that the wish to humiliate and take away anything that I might use to turn things around and create a useful, pro-social life is a big part of what's going on." Yes it's the "punishment" logic based on retribution, primal blood lust and sadism - none of which makes any sense and is no use to anyone.

"And it makes no sense, because they're just wasting tax payers' money - I know, I know, they don't really care about the tax payers' money, it's very obvious from how they spend and waste it on bureaucracy, but that's a different matter..." In America they still practice the ritual of the death penalty to satisfy their bloodlust - even though it costs more money to execute than to Imprison. And money which would be much better spent trying to get prisoners back into main stream society and obviously study them to try to find cures and effective treatments for those disorders associated with criminality. (As well as ways in which to prevent them in the first place).

"Spot on. And I believe this is one of the tendencies that modern societies should address, because with so large populations and growing internationalization it is important that people learn how to appreciate variety and the fact that not everybody live the same lifestyle or share the same religion, and so on. In a modern world we can't keep clinging to village mentality, it breeds cruelty towards minorities and individuals who happen to have unusual traits and/or skills, and we've already seen what that brings (think Columbine High and others)." Have you heard the saying "every society gets the criminal it deserves"? This explains the columbine shooters if they had treated them like human beings and recognised that they were "different" to most people then they wouldn't have done what they did. In the end everyone else pays for the crime of someone else.

Zhawq said...

John NuttÆ

"Robert Hare said the psychopath is a social predator and they can really make you believe that they are something they are not."

It is a common way of looking at it, but Hare's studies were ran over more than 20 years in prison settings. I recently read a new article by Hare wherein he says he's aware that not all psychopaths are criminal or violent. He'll probably still think we're all predators, but newest findings suggest otherwise.

As for the chameleon like ability to change identity, this does not have to be predatory. There's no doubt that the tendency is there, but I believe it has to do with cultural issues except for in a minority of cases of people who score 40 on the PCL-R.

"But wouldn't the psychopath be invested in a religion, or political cause only because it serves his interests? (Even in the case were he does actually believe in it)"

Yes, but this is the case for all people. The question is what your personal interest is, not if you have a personal interest. A psychopath can very well be involved in religion because he has a personal ambition of making the world a better place.

Jim Jones is a good example, but he's also an example of someone who lost sense of reality due to a combination of drug abuse and a hurtful childhood and youth. Like many psychopaths he didn't trust anybody with his most personal thoughts, and when you don't have anybody close to you who can tell you when you're about to get off track, things can go bad.

"money which would be much better spent trying to get prisoners back into main stream society and obviously study them to try to find cures and effective treatments for those disorders associated with criminality. (As well as ways in which to prevent them in the first place)."

True, in some ways we still live in the middle ages, all to please the herd. When you think of these things it's difficult to not feel a certain contempt.

"Can psychopaths value anything?"

Yes, of course they can. But our value is more like the kind you describe about your car or your computer because we don't have the deep emotional bond with other people.

"But surely psychopaths would be able to rationally recognise that working with other people and being loyal to them can benefit them?"

This seems to differ a lot between individuals. While we can obviously understand why it may benefit us, some psychopaths just don't care anyway because they're focused on immediate gratification. Loyalty is a long term investment, and for me it's never been difficult to employ it, though I wouldn't be able to do it at quite the same scale as normal people do. Still, if I decide and proclaim loyalty towards someone or a group of people, I'll keep my word. - And it's exactly like you say: It would be stupid not to look at the whole (unless we live in the wilderness where we only have to rely on our own ability to survive).

Then again, I do understand why many psychopaths don't give a damn about loyalty, but for me it's something I've chosen to put high on my list.

I grew up amongst people who have the ability to love, but who did everything under condition and who 'didn't like me' if I didn't do and felt things the way they wanted me to. I understood how important it is to have at least one person in your life who will be there for you no matter what, and I vowed to not copy the norms and behavior of the adults I grew up around.

"Have you heard the saying "every society gets the criminal it deserves"?"

Haha, well said. '^L^,

Anonymous said...

Zhawq - great read as usual. I do think you're a bit caught up in the US media belief system. Re your comments on Isis/ Crisis. You go to prison for killing 3 people but in the real world the Elite Psychopaths never go to prison for micro nuking 3 thousand in the twin Towers. Ref: Leaked US DoE Sandia Labs report - W54's were used to demolish the buildings.

Resigned Borderliner said...

Zhawk a question for you. It may be related to psychopathy vs sociopathy.

I need to illustrate by using myself. Sometimes I think I can be sociopatic when it comes to interpersonal relationships. But I do think we all are to some degree. I wonder more if you are.

I had some pretty bad stuff happening to me on a daily basis in my home as a kid. No one to talk to. So I once or twice tried to talk with my friend about some "not the worst" parts. The reaction was that "I don't believe you". "Retrauma". I came to think if that reaction was "empathy".

So later occasions, when I could sense and feel something was troubling my friend, and pretty much also had an idea what it could be, I stopped asking him. If he started to talk, I'd be pretending to be a bit interested.
I think I turned off, by will, my desire to care. I can though, turn it more on and off as I choose to.

Often resulting, when in "turn off" mode, to be called as "psychopath". (Not they know what that means). Fact often is, I don't care about what some people call me or think about it. I have them in "off mode".

So back to your case. Is it something similar ? Or is it more permanently off ?

In addition, many of the problems my friends in childhood had, was a luxuary problem in my head.
"If your life is such a big joke. Why should I care ?". Of course there were days when it was pretty much hopeless to try to turn on the consideration for others. Depending on what went on back home. But after a while, most shit just stopped bothering me. I had sort of two lives. "Working life" and normal. I don't know if it sounds familiar. Curious about it though

Resigned Borderliner said...

I'm a bit sorry coming off as a narcissist. I have a "hidden agenda" or thesis. I do believe most stems from childhood traumas. My brother is a pussy and whimp. He chose to act out on other innocents, what others again, had done to him. I chose to keep that shit within me as best as I could. I did take it out on some bully every once in a while. On days I also had some slip of the tounge verbally, to my friends..

The tool was to remember what had be done to me. To forget about my own ego, but to not forget about my own emotions and moral feelings. A duality there. Juggling two balls constantly.

To be impenetrable of that gaslighting from the malignant narcissists back home. The cost was to become more depression prone. The reward was to have a lot better friendships than for instance my brother or some other neighborhood hardcore psychos. More genuine social relationships.

Thesis is, that many may believe they were born psychopaths, due to gaslighting. If you were raised by a psychopath, it would be in there interest to have you get a diagnose as a child. Say ADHD for instance. The problem becomes you, and the real psychopath (parents) escapes what they honestly deserve.

Due to choosing the easy way out of problems, which is to be outgoing, manipulative and often bully-prone (ESTP ?) as in contrast to the more depression prone (INFJ/INTP). Personally I think that the latter one, are capable of more sick actions of crime and of good deeds, than the average psychopath. The shadow functions of the INFJ is ESTP. Being introspective and emotional as major trait, the INFJ can still on occasions act out through his shadow version.

Many a secondary psychopath is IMO a scared whimpshit, that prefers to shoot someone in the back. How the hell that gives them pleasure or makes them feel better about themselves, I can only explain by sadism and or false ego. -> Malignant narcissist who prefer to consider himself fearless and a psychopath.
To small balls to deal with his own interal fears and reality.

As with Zhawk, he seems to be more intrigued by why he is behaving as he does. To me, that would be more psychopatic and less narcissistic. A hell of a lot better personality, despite some awful past actions.

Yet, many answers may still be found back in the childhood days of why we become what we do. But it is painful to go back. "It's all the rage back home"..as Interpol sings.. It is not only painful for many a case. It makes it difficult to function on a daily basis. To go to work. Problematic for some extended period and the society doesn't reward that kind of introspection. Despite the possible benefits of avoided losses, as in murder, as in economical crimes etc..

Resigned Borderliner said...

"The joker" may be a primary INFJ who becomes the ESTP when acting out. But mostly he reflects and is basically a nihilist. He does have a "theory" for a lot of what he does.
He is also very high on sadism, which have me thinking he actually do have a pretty high empathy score. Because how is it possible to take pleasure in seeing others suffering by your hands, if you don't have empathy so that you can get the vibe and feeling of what is happening....


Well. Speculations are fun and harmless, mostly.

Anonymous said...

Do we know about any fat genome that just forces people to become fat farm material due to genetics ?

Nope.

But there seems to be support for different body types genetically. Like "ecto/endomorph".
Will it still be fair to call a thin person with the fat gene DNA in him, for thick ?

Nope

So why do science call people psychopaths due to a brain scan ??

I guess it is convenient with a scapegoat. And most narcs need one, so they can feel superior.

Just a thought. Not saying that assholes doesn't exist and roam out there. Some worse..

Found this article
http://psychcentral.com/news/2011/12/08/parsing-myths-and-facts-of-psychopathy/32334.html

John Nutt said...

@Zhawq
"I recently read a new article by Hare wherein he says he's aware that not all psychopaths are criminal or violent." I recently had a discussion about about empathy in psychopaths, this person said the psychopath he met was very empathic and literally gave of "Warmth" his view was that apparently some new studies have shown psychopath can turn their empathy (in the emotional sense) on and off. I have never heard either any expert in psychopathy (Hare, Fallon or Dutton) say any such thing nor I have ever heard any famous psychopath say it. I argued the psychopath was simulating emotion and using the psychopaths purely cold empathy to try to get something from this person. So that would be a case of the psychopath making you believe they are something they are not.

"As for the chameleon like ability to change identity, this does not have to be predatory. There's no doubt that the tendency is there, but I believe it has to do with cultural issues except for in a minority of cases of people who score 40 on the PCL-R."'How is changing identity cultural? From what I have read in the literature - and from psychopaths themselves - they change their identity when they have a new target. they essentially "study" the person and then become that persons "perfect match" (or business partner or whatever it might be.) I have read a case of a psychopath con man who every time he would get out of jail, he would adopt a new alias/persona meet a women, sell her some scam and then empty her bank account (and just move and adopt a new persona and keep doing the same thing.)

"This seems to differ a lot between individuals." I don't know if their are any studies on this but I am guessing loyalty is not common for psychopaths, although we know their are psychopaths who work in organisations where loyalty is essential - like business or even criminal organisations like the Mafia.

"Then again, I do understand why many psychopaths don't give a damn about loyalty, but for me it's something I've chosen to put high on my list." Yes as loyalty is the main thing needed if you (or any psychopath) wants to have a pro-social life.

"I grew up amongst people who have the ability to love, but who did everything under condition and who 'didn't like me' if I didn't do and felt things the way they wanted me to." In fairness they probably didn't know anything about psychopathy and did not understand that your brain processes emotions very differently to theirs. This is the reason that's sites like yours are important to people who encounter psychopaths - as they provide a first person perspective and not just a scientific "objective" study.

Anonymous said...

Ive been diagnosed as a psychopath 3 months ago. Im 30 years old. After i broke up with my ex wife, left the country and came back to mine. immediately after being diagnosed i couldn't stop thinking about it. The first month i thought that diagnose was wrong, but after a couple of days i started to look back and i saw all the traits. Now i think its very possible that diagnose was correct, but... i wanted to know why am i not comfortable with the idea of being a psychopath?, why am i trying to feel bad about it but i can't? and why is it that if i really am a psychopath i don't get upon my ego, stop caring about the diagnose and use it that as something good that allows me to get thru every hard time in my life?
I don't really know if someone can answer this, but maybe someone might have an idea... thanks anyway.

RB said...

Spinning on the ectomorph-endomorph case. Genetically predisposition.

So a person somehow figures out it is an endomorph. It does what it can to stay thin. To avoid health problems. And it's effort saves the society (welfare state)
for major sums.

Then a researcher influences the law. "Born to be fat". In practise this will never happen, since the tyranny of democracy has validatet fatness as legitime (most are fat).
But assume so were not the case. "We need some changes". People born with the endo gene mixture, will have restraints in their freedom. They will not be allowed to watch TV, since
activites like that, induces fatness. Plenty of other "splendid ideas" comes along on the way.

They are taking away peoples free will and insentive to bother about what they can actually do themselves. It is never binary

So you've spent your whole life exercising and yet
you shall be punished for a gene passed onto you by your ancestors ?
It doesn't fucking make sense, seen from an empathetic viewpoint. So again. Who is the true
psychopaths ?

Researchers and scientist. They are well aware of these nuances. They, mostly, know the dangers and the potential misuse. But do people ?
When do and/or will people stop listening to specialists ?
In the case of Breivik, it has already happened. The court (professionals with a very decent amount of IQ) chose
to listen to the voice of the people, and not the psychiatrists, in declaing that schizoprenic narcissist of a sadist as a non-psychotic person. Derserving punishment and further demotivate the officials to look for other influencing causes for his madness. (Fact is simple. KISS. When someone does something like that, he just isn't sane. Some things along his lifeline must have triggered and developed his personality)

In another case, not that known to public, basically because the empathetic public gives a shit since it didn't involve or have any effect on them directly.
A father, who had sexually abused his 3 daughters, over 9 years, was declared "psychotic". As in contrast to Breivik. The papers didn't explain all the matters
involving the sentence, but the father was neither sent to psychatric hospital nor jail. I'm just saying.. What the fuck... Who is the true psychopath...

And to all you diagnosed psychopaths.. The diagnose is not who you are or can be as person. It is more a judgement over your past behaviour, still.
In some way I feel we will be heading towards the opposite. That a brain scan itself, will be the determinator of what somebody mean you will do, even
though those actions may never really have stroke your mind.
Like "born to be fat"

RB said...


It is predjudiced. It is demotivating. Insensitive. And we should all try to evolve black skin, so that we can shout "racism".
That seems to work better on the public opinion.

Pavlov taught us classical conditioning. B.F. Skinner showed us operational conditioning. When was that agian ? Back in the 40s I think. He also demonstrated that
positive reinforcement/feedback had better effects on positive actions, than punishment. This is now 70 years back in history.

I read an article along these lines: Scientist discover, after research (well it has existed since Skinner), that youngsters with anti-social tendencies
have a lot better readjustment back to society when good behaviour is being reinfoced...

What a BOMB ?!?!.... Jesus. This article or finding, just proves to me, that they never really bothered to search for the truth or the clean facts. No, they just wanted a scapeboat
to make themselves feel as more "correct" human beings. At least I am speculating in those term.
Please. Don't take those kids seriously, at least not 100%. They are half clueless about themselves in the first place.
The Milgrams experiment is not longer available for testing purposes. Why?

Because those sensitive feel-good-about-themselves-narcs just couldn't handle the fact that as human beings, they were pretty much the same as the common german in
the nazi periode. They weren't any "morally" better or worse. They too, were capable of murderer. "We will have to spare them for the truth."

I've come to wonder if maybe some "corporate" politican just sat the foot down and said something like:
You psychologists guys. Stop doing that shit. My workers are becoming demotivating and caught up in self analysis wondering who they truly are. That ain't productive for me. Some don't even show up at work and want me to pay for them being sick. Fuck that shit. I'm loosing money here...


Just choose to behave. Take pride in every morning you wake up with a cleaner slate, than you used to wake up with. Choose to challenge your self and your own limits, instead of focusing on manipulation of your environment. It is the process, not the goal, that makes life worthwhile.

RB said...

Facts for the above.

Breivik was diagnosed "paranoid schizophrenic" by the first couple of psychiatrist. That is "psychotic" based diagnosis, which would have sent him to mental hospital not jail.

My pure feeling is that it simply wasn't enough satisfying for the (sadistic?) empathetic lunch mob. It was demanded he was mentally healthy. Arguing along the lines that he seemed to be sort of functional on everyday basis.

Whether he was or wasn't , average Joe disqualified the experts and their opinion. Average Joe knew more of the human mind then those experts. Fact is, Average Joe may have been correct, but isn't it a bit sado-narcissistic claim from him ?!

The "father", being declared psychotic, appear to have been the average malignant narcissist. Destroying only his "own property", as in his kids. He was, besides that, well functioning citizen. This guy was declared "psychotic" over a span of 9 years.

While other court psychiatrist, in the case of Breivik, argued that it would be virtually impossible to go undetected over Breiviks 4-5 years of planning, if he was a psychotic ?

Point isn't just who is right or wrong. Fact remains. Everything can be adapted to how the eye of the beholder wants things to be. Very dangerous implications. And in itself, just very demotivating.

I need to focus again on important and motivating matters in my life. Watch some porn and jerk off :)

If those porn sites had existed back in 30s, Hitler would have been without a chance. People just wouldn't have cared about his opinions at all. They had better things to do :) It has become the new religion and opium for the people. Lol

Zhawq said...

Anon, Feb. 12. 2015 - 11:05 PM:

"great read as usual."

Thank you.

"I do think you're a bit caught up in the US media belief system. Re your comments on Isis/ Crisis. You go to prison for killing 3 people but in the real world the Elite Psychopaths never go to prison for micro nuking 3 thousand in the twin Towers. Ref: Leaked US DoE Sandia Labs report - W54's were used to demolish the buildings."

I don't think I'm caught up in the media belief system. Actually, I am very known - by people who know where I stand with regard to the media in general - for the exact opposite. It is possible that I have said something that would lead you to the conclusion you describe, but while I am very critical towards the truthfulness and factuality of our media's versions of what is happening, or what has been happening in the past, I find it just as reasonable to exert the same critical observation when it comes to our so called own side. That being said, I am not entirely sure about the truthfulness about the data found by those who wrote the Sandia Labs report - not to mention those who leaked it - and as such I personally can't tell if the weapons used really were w54's or something else.

In fact, one could argue that in a mission of such international import it borders on irresponsibility to use US weaponry to carry out the missions - unless you want people to think America was behind it in the event that the whole thing was to be known by the media. And this, I'm sure we can agree, was exactly what happened.

My point with all this is not to disprove your theories about the Sandia Labs report, nor to prove myself the more observant. I want to show that for as long as we don't have definite proof about who did what, we can only speculate and form elaborate - if no less believable - theories about what is and what isn't true, all in accordance with our own beliefs on the matter.

I am not claiming that my background and origin hasn't to some degree formed how I think, which is true for me as it is true for everyone. But I do hope it hasn't made me stupid enough to buy into what the media say. '^L^,

Zhawq said...

Resigned Borderliner:

"a question ... related to psychopathy vs sociopathy.

I need to illustrate by using myself. Sometimes I think I can be sociopatic when it comes to interpersonal relationships. But I do think we all are to some degree. I wonder more if you are."


There are many definitions for Sociopathy. Personally I have leaned toward the definition given by doc. Robert Hare, but since it's meaning varies so much between scholars and people, police precincts and even judges and professionals working within the prison systems, I'll have to conclude as a general rule that I can't answer questions about this topic - unless the person who asks also provides me with their personal view of what Sociopathy is.

"I had some pretty bad stuff happening to me on a daily basis in my home as a kid. No one to talk to. So I once or twice tried to talk with my friend about some "not the worst" parts. The reaction was that "I don't believe you". "Retrauma". I came to think if that reaction was "empathy"."

Well that reaction was disbelief. What did you tell him? I'm interested because I've had similar experiences with people whom I told things that I wouldn't normally share with others. If you feel uncomfortable writing about it here on the public comment board, send me an email. You will find my email address under 'Contact me' (it's written in blue and is located at the top of the page).

"So later occasions, when I could sense and feel something was troubling my friend, and pretty much also had an idea what it could be, I stopped asking him. If he started to talk, I'd be pretending to be a bit interested.
I think I turned off, by will, my desire to care. I can though, turn it more on and off as I choose to.


I see. And you're sure you can do this also when you feel nothing as you normally would and feel 'empty' because of it - can you also turn emotions on or off at such times?

"Often resulting, when in "turn off" mode, to be called as "psychopath"."

People who don't know what a psychopath is or what the word means, will usually call someone a psychopath if they think he is freakish, scary, or simply not making sense - many mentally ill people are called psychopaths when they have psychotic episodes in public.

"(Not they know what that means). Fact often is, I don't care about what some people call me or think about it. I have them in "off mode".

So back to your case. Is it something similar ? Or is it more permanently off ?


I'm not sure I follow. What are you asking me about here?

"In addition, many of the problems my friends in childhood had, was a luxuary problem in my head.

"If your life is such a big joke. Why should I care ?"."


lol. Good point.

"Of course there were days when it was pretty much hopeless to try to turn on the consideration for others. Depending on what went on back home. But after a while, most shit just stopped bothering me. I had sort of two lives. "Working life" and normal. I don't know if it sounds familiar. Curious about it though"

I'm sure a lot of people feel they are one person at home and another at work, but I'm not sure that they think of one as more normal than the other, though they may perhaps think one part of their lives more happy than the other, but that isn't the same thing. Then again, you probably have good reason to find one part of your life more normal than the other part, but however it is with that, I don't think it's healthy. It may also very well be some of the reason why you sometimes resort to binge drinking, since something is obviously askew and you may be at a point where you don't know what to do about it.

Zhawq said...

Resigned Borderliner:

"My brother is a pussy and whimp. He chose to act out on other innocents, what others again, had done to him. I chose to keep that shit within me as best as I could. I did take it out on some bully every once in a while. On days I also had some slip of the tounge verbally, to my friends.."

Taking it out on people who had nothing to do with it and keeping it inside until a slip of tongue had you take it out on your friends verbally are both ineffective methods of dealing with injustices.

Don't get me wrong, I know it isn't easy to deal with stuff like that, and we're many who have been through the same kind of shit in one form or another.

What I would suggest for you and your brother was to team up and find those bullies who used to make your lives hell and give them a little pay back when you had the chance. It may not have been the same bullies that tortured him who gave you hell, but that doesn't matter, it's still a way of dealing with a problem you have both experienced, and it is always far better to stick together as family than to turn against each other.

Your brother may be a pussy and a whimp, but think about it, maybe he doesn't know any better because nobody told him. This could be your chance to help him out and get a thankful brother in return who'll always back you up if you're in a tight spot or get into trouble some day.

"The tool was to remember what had be done to me. To forget about my own ego, but to not forget about my own emotions and moral feelings. A duality there. Juggling two balls constantly."

I don't see why you would try to forget about your ego when you're about to remember and understand all the rest. Your ego is part of who you are.

"To be impenetrable of that gaslighting from the malignant narcissists back home."

Now you're talking in riddles. Who are the malignant narcissists back at your home?

"The cost was to become more depression prone. The reward was to have a lot better friendships than for instance my brother or some other neighborhood hardcore psychos. More genuine social relationships.

Stop! No. You don't trade for better friendships by paying with being depressed. That's as toxic as it can be, my friend, and something you shouldn't get into for any reason however promising it is made out to be.

"Thesis is, that many may believe they were born psychopaths, due to gaslighting."

Children are gaslighted into thinking they're the most horrible, evil people in existence, simply to ease their parents' guilt ridden conscience.

"If you were raised by a psychopath, it would be in there interest to have you get a diagnose as a child. Say ADHD for instance. The problem becomes you, and the real psychopath (parents) escapes what they honestly deserve." Most psychopaths will avoid having their children evaluated because they don't want interference from the outside. But of course, that doesn't mean they can't make their kids think they have this and that disorder. This does happen.

"Due to choosing the easy way out of problems, which is to be outgoing, manipulative and often bully-prone (ESTP ?) as in contrast to the more depression prone (INFJ/INTP)."

Personally I'm just doing what comes naturally to me. If one way is easier and doesn't seem to have any worse consequences than the other I don't see why I shouldn't chose the easier way.

Continues...

Zhawq said...

Resigned Borderliner - continued...

"Personally I think that the latter one, are capable of more sick actions of crime and of good deeds, than the average psychopath."

This is pure speculation, and I have to say that I don't think one is more prone to do harmful acts than the other. The question is more what type of harmful acts they each are more prone to commit.

"The shadow functions of the INFJ is ESTP. Being introspective and emotional as major trait, the INFJ can still on occasions act out through his shadow version."

I haven't heard about 'shadow function'. Will you explain to me what it means?

"Many a secondary psychopath is IMO a scared whimpshit, that prefers to shoot someone in the back."

Some would say that it is just smarter to shoot someone in the back rather than risk taking a bullet because you want to play the hero. It's all a matter of perspective, remember that.

"How the hell that gives them pleasure or makes them feel better about themselves, I can only explain by sadism and or false ego. -> Malignant narcissist who prefer to consider himself fearless and a psychopath.
To small balls to deal with his own interal fears and reality."


I can tell you have some beef with someone who's a narcissist, yes?

"As with Zhawk, he seems to be more intrigued by why he is behaving as he does. To me, that would be more psychopatic and less narcissistic." The teams of forensic psychologists and neuro-scientists would agree with that. ;)

"A hell of a lot better personality, despite some awful past actions."

I actually did not shoot that guy in the back, though if I had felt threatened enough I wouldn't have hesitated to do just that.

"Yet, many answers may still be found back in the childhood days of why we become what we do. But it is painful to go back. "It's all the rage back home"..as Interpol sings.. It is not only painful for many a case. It makes it difficult to function on a daily basis. To go to work."

You have the insight. If you can keep it up and follow through with going through that hell of memorizing childhood events of hell, get through it and realize it didn't kill you, you will become stronger than most people can even dream of.

"Problematic for some extended period and the society doesn't reward that kind of introspection. Despite the possible benefits of avoided losses, as in murder, as in economical crimes etc."

Very true. And that is why you should never put your faith in society to help you out even when it's part of the social pact, the law. You can only rely on yourself. When you know that in your heart, and you know you have what it takes to survive under the worst of circumstances because you've already been there, then you'll be 'safe' in a way only you can know. It's called being yourself and owning who you are. No more excuses because there's no need for them, and you know you can do what you know in your heart is right for you....Good luck, my friend.

Zhawq said...

Resigned Borderliner:

"He is also very high on sadism, which have me thinking he actually do have a pretty high empathy score. Because how is it possible to take pleasure in seeing others suffering by your hands, if you don't have empathy so that you can get the vibe and feeling of what is happening...."

There are two kinds of empathy. There is the 'normal' kind which is called 'hot empathy', and there is the unusual kind - the kind that psychopaths are known for - which is called 'cold empathy'.

Both are empathy, and empathy enables you to know what someone else is going through, experiencing. But the cold empathy lacks the bonding that makes him identify with the other person. So while he may be very aware of what the other person is going through, he doesn't get the chemical brain signal that tells him to stop hurting the other person. If he does stop he does it because he can intellectually understand that he's about to seriously harm that person, or perhaps he's aware that he may loose his friendship if he continues.

But more about that in a future article. '^L^,


Well. Speculations are fun and harmless, mostly

Zhawq said...

Anon, Feb. 19. 2015, 1:28 PM:

"there seems to be support for different body types genetically. Like "ecto/endomorph".
Will it still be fair to call a thin person with the fat gene DNA in him, for thick ?

Nope"


Lovely. Absolutely genius. This is what I've been saying all along: You can have inherent traits of a mass murderer and yet not kill anyone for as long as you live.

Isn't it funny that this same theory, when applied to other things than psychopathy and violence, is widely accepted, while in the case of psychopaths and murderers it is still highly controversial among many researchers.

"So why do science call people psychopaths due to a brain scan ??"

I think the right question would be: Why do people call psychopaths evil or bad due to a brain scan? As I see it, it isn't the word psychopath there's something wrong with, but how we create associations when we hear the word psychopath.

The neurological differences that makes someone a psychopath are still the same, what is new about it is that we have now been given proof that a person born with the prerequisites of a psychopath does not have to become a killer or a bad person per se. And this is the part that mainstream society has such difficulty with digesting and getting used to.

"I guess it is convenient with a scapegoat. And most narcs need one, so they can feel superior."

I think you pretty much described what's at the heart of the matter here. This, and nothing else, is holding society back from acknowledging the psychopathic individual as a potential asset to the human species' continued survival and thriving.

"Just a thought."

And a good thought at that.

"Not saying that assholes doesn't exist and roam out there. Some worse.."

True that. But the same goes for people of all other kinds and categories within the psychological systems of understanding.

Found this article
http://psychcentral.com/news/2011/12/08/parsing-myths-and-facts-of-psychopathy/32334.html


Thank you, I'll be sure to check it out. '^L^,

RB said...

There you go Zhawk. You didn't use the word "fascinating" at all.

Your not a "psychopath". Your just an INTP/J with above average IQ, living in his shadow function as an ESFJ/P, to fit better in. Hehe :)


For your article about empathy. Does it really exist at all ?
What is empathy but the feeling of feeling connected on occasions. Aka, an egoistic emotion. Altruism is a twisted and glorified form of egotism. It doesn't truly exist in itself, but it sure is a better way, environmentally speaking, to get pleasure.

"Gee man... I can connect to what you say and "feel". I get those same reactions.. How nice that I am not the only one in the world who is "like me" or think in those terms". This is what most normals "feel". They just don't put words on it :) Hell knows.

People, nons, also wanna feel connected out of other motives. Like being "protected". Since psychopaths are better, maybe the best, in protecting themselves from the outside world, some of the good reasons for empathy simply will not apply to them as easily. In addition their "ego" can be pretty small, so not so much to "be protected from evilness". Many a psycho, as in contrast to a narc, know how small they are in this universe ? Just another though.

Isn't there always a cost/benefit analysis involved sub consciously. I have not seen proof of anything else. I guess, in a speculative way, one may call someone that has a ration above 1, for a "ASPD". It costs that person a lot to bother about something that benefits him very little. The only reason narcs can still do that, is because they have no inner self. They need evaluation from other people, so even though their costs are vast, the benefit (pleasure) they get from it, is even greater. (Fucking jerks...! hehe)

RB said...

About your cited view of "empathy".

According to that view, the masochist would be in real trouble. He would be a sadist out of the misconception that other people must enjoy what he or she do to them. Hehe ;)

Hey. It isn't me... I'm just applying the biblical "golden rule" here :)

Non-violent persons, with reason, don't wanna feel pain. And if I don't wanna feel pain, because I myself dislike it, it doesn't fucking take an empathetic genious to understand that I shouldn't do shit that I dislike myself, to others.

And here is where the real sickness of those narcs, yet again, it strikes me. A disaster that those soulless scams manage to fit in so well among low IQ/EQ and good intended normal human beings. But their selling their souls in the process. Not that they ever had one.

RB said...

A couple of thoughts about that cold vs varm/normal empathy.

Another possible way to put it, is to consider "empathy" consisting of 2 major components.

1. Do you get it ?
2. Do you care about it ?


If one get it, but doesn't really care, I would guess that can be called for "cold empathy".

Caring about others, can be unlearned to a large degree.
(Nature vs nurture)

Another way to put cold empathy then, might very well be this way:
"Empathy without sympathy"

Everybody has that one. We get a lot everyday, that we don't really care about or want to care about. If we did care a lot, injustice would not exist to such a degree as it does today. And watching it all, would drive most people nuts.

So, could it be as simple as that a sociopath just have less reasons to "care about it" ? Maybe even more reasons to "go nuts"/baggage if he starts to care ?

1. Probably most of his life felt pretty alone, and even been alone. Not much help/sympathy from other or his or her nearest. So why should he care back for someone, who doesn't care for him.
(Some people care, it is just hard to believe if one has never met them)

2. He isn't that scared of being alone (he already is alone in many ways), so less reason to fake as if one care (there is a lot of faking, also among non-psy..)

3. If one cares to much, one become neurotic. It just isn't healthy.(and everybody think it is a turn off too. It won't get you laid, it won't get you paid..)

I'm sort of questioning how much is really nature and not nurture. History shows us plenty of people, even nations, more or less shutting down their "sympathy". They probably still got what they were doing to innocent people. They just didn't want to care, as in becoming neurotics.

I suspect many a sociopath has been to early, to long and to much among people who didn't care about him or her. Instead of going nuts, at some point, one just has to shut down, turn off, emotions.

Again. Nature vs nurture. A brain scan will show your current status. But it doesn't say a lot about making possible changes, or new brain connections and patterns.
If a person "does not care", in the measuring moment, yes the activity in the brain will be different.( As in passing a lie detector. )

(Some thoughts I had meant for you, and not necessarily public. )

RB said...

I was having a look at the "psychopath traits".

I came to think about modern feminism.

It became clear:

A psychopath is.......
"The average western woman, in a mans body"


Yeah. Sounds reasonable, me thinks. Woman, child... poteito, potato.

Anonymous said...

Modern feminism... lol...

"Narcissism gone psychotic"..


The psychopath, is a woman in a mans body... A woman with a penis.. Imagine the envy of women..
The psychopath, is the person they would have been, if they only had a penis !

And that is why those psychotic narcs, also known as "women", aka "modern independent parasites", loves psychopath :)

Problem solved. Next !

RB said...

Should have added this in the last. I had an "eureka" moment and eagerness took me.


So..
Psychopath:
"Soul type": F(acade)(Shifting)
Genital:Penis
Stamina and courage: Pretty good in many cases. In some cases almost impressive

21th century western woman:
"Soul type": F(acade)(Shifting)
Genital: Vagina
Stamina and courage: Crap. FAT FARM next. Oh wait ! It takes to much work. Gastro bypass is better !

F may also be seen as F(air weather)
The modern women only envy 1 type of person, more than she envy her "sisters". That is the psychopath. He is an improved version of herself.
They speak the same language. He was mistakenly sent to Venus (or was it Mars) as a child..

So she both envy and she admires. Normally that equals "wetness". "I'll pay you, to let me suck you". Mkay..

She may even fall in love to some degree. Because I'm telling you, there is no hatred where there never was any love/care (or lust or whatever you prefer calling it)..

"Oh Jesus... My ex hubbie was a psychopath"...
I see those everywhere...
"Then why the fuck did you marry him your dumb b*h !? Take some responsibility silly and lazy cow"...
Should have been the reply we hardly ever see.

There is an answer to that question..
"Because I couldn't manipulate him easily, and that made me wet..."

...Society is a lost case...

..just..Stay away from crimes...Unless your a woman. They have a free pass
...Yet, they use dumb men (psycho or non, doesn't matter), to commit their crimes and do time, for them.

RB said...

The value of "empathy" among "good people":

This video drives me fucking nuts. Hypocrisy.


The most likely person to be bothered, could very well be an ex-con

social experiment from youtube
(I've done a couple myself. Nothing this brutal, but with same tendency in the results)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CwCvpEMEJU&feature=youtu.be


Is the socipathic mindset mainly a mindset of a less (self-)deluded individual ?

Btw. Does this video, or the lack of sympathy in it, disturb you emotionally ? Do you get angry and at same time shockingly catatonic ?

If this is humanity (empathy) at it best, I honestly find it really hard to argue that a psychopath would lack anything at all ( maybe disregarding guilt and self-preservation)

I wrote that above after watching 1.30 of the video. Before anyone interfered. Look what I said about who would be the most likely to assist the kid. Ex-con ? (I suspect. Drugs. Maybe even diagnosed AsPD due to drugs/time in prison I sense). I'm refering to the black (samaritarian).

He may never have been imprisoned, but I would bet my balls that the cops occasionally have questioned him under the assumption of him (being black and poor and eeeevverryttthing baaad :p )
being a bad guy.

It simply freaks me out. Fucking Milgram of 2000.

(Dr. Hare I am calling you out to diagnose "normality") :)
Coz to me, this ain't fucking "normal" at all.

I've complained about this a lot and I will say it again:
Zhawk, your not missing out on a lot out there. There just isn't that fucking much of that mythical thing they call "empathy".

And that is why I have resigned..

RB said...

For so many years, I've considered the typical non to just be a psychopath with a stronger narc tendency. That trait increases the narcs self-preservation, which again is what makes "it" act in conformity with the laws and norms, which again makes "it" not much more than a non-criminal psychopath.

If a persons "narcishness" goes "insane", everything may turn extremely to the other side (remember that people actually do remember the names of big-time murderers). And that is why a narc can be a lot more dangerous than a "psychopath". Just mentioning McVeigh, Breivik..

(I fucking hate those narcs... :))


So the cure for psychopathy comes, again, down to "just fucking dont break the law... You will be a normal person". Voila !! I'm not even charging for it.

FallingUp said...

I NEED some perspective. I’ve dated a guy on/off for 8 months. First few months were wonderful, then these things started to happen:

We met; he was charming/said all the right things.
HE WAS HOT.
He said he loved me w/in 2 weeks
He made me laugh and was so much fun
He immediately wanted to move in with me
He said no one else could love me like he could
He told me he had a job/a home (he didn’t have a job and lived with a friend)
He told me we were a good looking couple and he loved how ppl would stare at us.
He told me everyone wanted to be like us.
OUR SEX WAS AMAZING

I told him I couldn’t spend every minute with him – just because life didn’t always allow it.
He called me selfish, a bitch, its “all about me”, I don’t pay enough attention to him, I don’t think of his needs, I treat him like shit.
My family was skeptical of him – he said we could hide our relationship and I didn’t need to spend time with them.
He didn’t want me to hang out w/ friends, so he’d plot us against each other.
We started to fight about this.
He thought I was cheating on him – he texted my roommate and told her him and I had sex all over her house, had used her gun, had smoked her weed and I would constantly sneak in into her house (ALL OF THESE THINGS WERE LIES).
CONSEQUENTLY, SHE ASKED ME TO LEAVE. SHE WAS SCARED OF HIM.

I broke up with him.
Next, he bad mouthed me to friends – told them I was on drugs, depressed, sucked him for $$, etc.. Embarrassed the hell out of me. He texted me how sorry he was.

6 weeks later I took him back.

He continued to:
Interrogate me whereabouts/need explanations
Didn’t trust me
Had major anxiety
Would have meltdowns of rage
He’d cry about his non-relationship with his kids – would blame me for not seeing them. In reality, he never wanted to leave me alone so he wouldn’t see them.
He told me I was lucky to have him – he could have 5 other girls he could date.

I broke up with him.

He:
Lied to me and told me he had collapsed, was in an ambulance and was going to the hospital. He did this to get me to call him back.
He told me to face time him so I could watch him blow his head off.
He told me we couldn’t live without each other.
He told me he was depressed and sorry.
I took him back.

He:
Continued to have fits of rage. I asked him to leave/he wouldn’t. I called the police. They escorted him out – he told them that we just “fight” and we’d be back in a week.
He continued to contact me. I broke down and saw him.

We were out one night – he was doing coke – I drove him home. He got upset with me, and drove them car off the road, almost killing us. He grabbed my phone and threw it out the window. He trapped me in the car and wouldn’t’ let me drive.

I broke up with him. He said he was sorry. I allowed him to come over and talk. Certain behaviors continued, but he tried. THEN, he broke up with me. I believe, to have the last word.

Other things –
He was insecure about himself, yet fixated on his body
Lied about the littlest things – pathologically
Had a history of drug use & had been in treatment at Hazeldon 8 years earlier
Treated his parents like shit – who support him $$$ -
Came from a wealthy family/youngest child/spoiled childhood
Extremely impulsive; always an “excuse” for his behavior; people “deserved” what they got
He HAD to win & have the LAST word or action
Record of assault – bar fights
He has violated a restraining order from a previous girlfriend & is continuing treatment for that (I had to research this to find it out)
Another girlfriend took him to small claims court
He stole from friends
Very Impulsive – admittedly
Cried a lot – not sure if this was sincere
Never trusted me
**trouble as a teenager with multiple drug use, stealing cars, money, belongings, uyet AGAIN, came from a wealthy family, gifted athletically, but couldn’t control his behaviors.

Is he a psychopath!?!?!
And why do I miss him???