Monday, January 19, 2015

Psychopath: Language & The Meaning of Words.


Psychopaths use Language Differently from how Normal, Neurotypical people use it. We often apply more elaborate Meaning, but less Emotional Foundation, to Words than Normal People do because our Brains Function and Process Language, Meaning, and Emotion Differently from Non-Psychopathic People's Brains. 

Psychopathy researchers and psychologists have known this for years, possible for several decades, it is not new to them. In this article I am going to describe with an example how I use words differently from the people around me.

Robert Hare, in his book 'Without Conscience', writes about the shallow emotions of psychopaths. One of the examples he gives to convey this goes something like this: "They (the psychopaths) will typically say 'This is fascinating'", using the word 'fascinating'. And for me it is true, I do use that word - a lot. But...

- That line stuck with me. I think it's a little strange because to me it has always seemed that most normal people, when they say "This is so interesting" or "How interesting, don't you think?', display shallow emotions. It's like a display of lazy curiosity. I guess I find it shallow because mostly, when people say something like "isn't it interesting?", I see absolutely nothing interesting in the subject they're talking about at all, and very often I know they're not really interested either - at least not enough so to actually investigate further. I.O.W., it's just words to show you're a social and friendly person.

I don't hear the word 'fascinating' be used in that manner - except for a few exceptions where it was used as a group relative semi-slang that these people simply used instead of the word 'interesting' to show they had linguistic finesse and weren't plain (How 'interesting'! *yawn*).

Isn't the word 'fascinating' a reflection of stronger emotions than the word 'interesting'? I believe the link above shows that I'm right when I say it is.

I see it this way: When something is interesting, it is simply logically interesting, there's nothing emotional about it, you're merely making a neutral observation (ref. also the link 'interesting' above). But when I use the word 'fascinating' about something, it means there's an emotional element involved, I want to investigate further because it connects with a personal interest that I have in the subject.

Maybe  Doc. Bob Hare simply meant to say that we psychopaths use the word 'fascinating' without really understanding or knowing about the emotional connotations that this word entails, that we use it to fake emotional interest and that we do it habitually (since Hare notices that we use it a lot). After learning that I fit the criteria for having the psychopathy diagnosis, I very often question myself about how accurately my emotional experience fits the meaning of the words that I use to express myself when I communicate with others. And while I have found many examples where I obviously don't have the actual feelings behind the words I use, I've also found a lot of cases where I'm just not entirely sure.

But this will not come as a surprise to Doc. Robert D. Hare, he was the first to discuss the many examples where people - probably mostly psychopaths - have some degree and type of feeling about something. But it is a very unclear and murky kind of feeling that even the person themselves aren't really sure about, that we don't know what to call, and definitely don't know how to describe or explain.

Conclusion: While there clearly are psychopaths who deliberately fake an interest where they have none by saying "How fascinating!", this doesn't fit in my case. I don't use the word 'fascinating' if I'm really not interested, I'll be more likely to use the word that those i am communicating with would be using, and I generally dislike rigid linguistics, I mush prefer to allow language to be a fluid ever changing tool, just like life itself which never stays the same.

72 comments:

Anonymous said...

I mean it if I use it to describe something that happened the exact moment. I don't stay attached to past experience.

The occasions I used 'fascinating' are rare.

You may be similar.

Phrominox said...

This particular instance isn't something I've given too much thought too in daily practice, but I can't help but notice that I do in fact use "fascinating", a lot, much more than I use interesting. I think it comes down, for me, to the implied difference between the two words that you've described above. I more use interesting when I don't mind letting the others in a conversation know how dull I truly find their topic or when I want to see how such a blatant glossing-over of the subject makes them react. "Fascinating" just gives better results. Which, in turn, in fascinating.

Zhawq said...

People are probably more likely to believe you're interested if you say you're fascinated.

Anonymous said...

Fascinating.....


It is from "Earnest goes to camp". After that movie I started to use the term.

Zhawq said...

Anon Jan. 21, 2015 at 11:59 AM:

"It is from "Earnest goes to camp". After that movie I started to use the term."

I don't remember when it was that I heard the word the first time, or who said it, but I've been using it ever since. It's a good word. '^L^,

Anonymous said...

(Dreama)
I.
My bad. I read the nature excerpt & percieved different than u intended.

Lordy, a welcome relief that I'm not alone in overanalyzing words, lol. Referencing the word fascinating.
I hope ur not goin all passive aggressive on me?

Had 2 put a nix on my own analysis ferris wheel(s),in the honest attempt 2 make changes? Used 2b relentless some days - the overthinking. Hard habit 2 give up.

The efforts provide for an absolute paradise in my floral landscaping. Con: after yrs of science/ programming careers, just letting that go in turn for the "prettier" things in life,don't have a fucking CLUE what these (now adult) boys of mine try 2 outline 2 me re optimizing smartphone usage,lol Ah, trade did me better.

Here there's always a place 2b intellectually challenged.

Don't do social media. Don't find it interesting. Kinda find it narcky. Have had people go all aghast when I read something on ur site & been told "HOW can u find that stuff interesting?"

I don't. I find some of it 'fascinating' ;-P

When I use the term, I mean it.

Example: Both sons decent musicians. Yesterday,spent half the day w/him at an audition. Got home & he wanted 2 show me the drum piece they gave to audition. Interested. He's my kid. Pride/ego, the whole caboodle. I can't/don't play anything. So all the nuances don't interest me @ all. I was 'interested' in his demonstration & the emotional feeling I got observing was pleasurable. It had been a day of drumming 4 me & for a non-musician, I was pleased when he finally threw in the drumsticks for the evening.

So I could get back 2 the new book I'm reading .. subject matter I find 'fascinating'.

So, for me @ least,interesting is more like an experience that I may find pleasurable, with def limits.

Fascinating is something I may have to watch myself for hyperfocusing so's I can pump the brakes when a 'reasonable' amount of time's been allotted 2 it. That reasonable variable is always a gray area ;)

The last book 'fascinated me'. Picked it up & read in a few hrs. Didn't get the laundry done, but hey, every now & again it's fine 2 indulge in something that fascinates me. Every once in a blue moon, there's a book ya can't put down.

The book I'm currently & reading also fascinate me, but I keep it at a couple chapters a day, lest books become, like science and programming was-a hyperfocus.

Ur analysis of the use of the word is interesting. Luv food for thought & enjoy others perceptions & thought processes.
Urs almost always reward w/insight.


II next ..

Anonymous said...

II.
Yrs ago, a few times I printed out a paragraph or two of urs from articles u had written. Kept on hand for use when I HAD to be in particularly academic social settings. Experiment of my assumptions. 'Fascinated' me how similar these thinkers aligned with ur thinking at times. Or validated?

Okay, I have 2 end this w/humor: The BEST part was ALWAYS when I would reveal where the source came from! I'd start out by explaining the risks in excessive 'logical' or analytic thinking in trying to go forward. ESPECIALLY in outlines for clinical project management. I'd propose a little time spent on core intentions vs ALL analytical logistics. Cool to dissect a project, but good to know WHY & not only from a business point. I'd expose how similar THEIR thought processes were to a labelled "psychopath". Needless to say, the back peddling was hysterical.

The ripple effect is broader than most of us can perceive or assume. At least on a few occassions, I had (what society labels as) "goody two shoes" type clinical administrators, doctors, legal, etc , having to ponder just how similar THEIR thinking was to a path's.

.... there really are some things that money just can't buy. Lack of insight & denial picks up the tab on uncomfortable situations all too often. Positive situations too :(

Back 2 laundry, dishes, dinner, & all the neither interesting or fascinating stuff now.

[Again, sorry I misunderstood ur comment about nature appreciation. Appreciate your clarifying]

Anonymous said...

Good word yes.

Even The Cure know that. One of their best tunes, are Fascination Street. Then again, Robert Smith, would probably qualify as a non-violent psychopath, which again would probably make him a bit more schizoid or schizotypal.

But "Earnest goes to camp". You should check it out. You get the picture after 15 min, so no need to watch the whole movie

Anonymous said...

Robert Smith yes. A schizotypal or a rational to the extreme. He is not very normal though. Easily classified as a pscyhopath by pub/disco-normals if he wasnt such a famous person.

"someone like Kate and William... I dont know how fuck they are... And who cares ??"....
Good interview

"I fucking hate the idea of the royal family."

Point is there are a lot of non-psychopath psychopaths out there. Honesty for instance, is "psychopatic", as political uncorrectness. And so forth. And the PCL, how easy isn't it to read the "concept" at first sight and plot what gives you the nice guy score... Oversimplifications.. All over the world, aaall over the world (pixies)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8bSyQjcuYk&list=RDz8bSyQjcuYk#t=13

Zhawq said...

Anon Jan. 23, 9:12 AM,

you wrote:
"Even The Cure know that ['fascinating' is a good wor]. One of their best tunes, are Fascination Street."

I haven't heard that much of their music, but Lullaby is one of my favorites and is on the list at my Youtube channel. I'll check out 'Fascination street'.

"Then again, Robert Smith, would probably qualify as a non-violent psychopath, which again would probably make him a bit more schizoid or schizotypal."

Why do you think he's a psychopath?

Being schizoid or schizotypal isn't exactly typical for psychopaths, but you know more about Robert Smith than I do, obviously, so maybe you have your reasons for thinking this may be the case.

I almost bought the video (movie) 'Earnest goes to Camp' but forgot about it. Thank you for the suggestion, I will certainly check it out as soon as I get a chance to do so. '^L^,

Zhawq said...

Dreama,

"I hope you're not going all passive aggressive on me?"

There's that paranoia of yours again. ;)

Passive aggression isn't really my style, it is something people do as a last resort when they feel cornered and don't have any other way to defend what they perceive to be their integrity.

Personally I don't over analyze things, but you're definitely not alone about doing it, many people have the same problem.

"Used 2b relentless some days - the overthinking. Hard habit to give up."

I used to have an on and off sexual BDSM romance with a woman who over analyzed things and words to the extreme. I successfully helped her get the compulsion under control, so yes, I know it's difficult, but it's not impossible. And while it is a matter of determination first, it definitely helps if you have someone to help you through the process.

"The efforts provide for an absolute paradise in my floral landscaping."

Interesting choice of words, but I must admit I don't quite understand what you're trying to say.

"Con: after yrs of science/ programming careers ... don't have a fucking CLUE what these (now adult) boys of mine ... trade did me better."

I don't know that you have had years of programming and/or science careers, nor do I know that you have any adult sons - I don't know that you have any children at all - and I don't know that you've been a successful trader. This is not an accusation, it's just that giving your past history with aliases and lying I don't know any of these things. So I'll pass on this and move on...

"Don't do social media. ... Kinda find it narcky."

That's a rather narrow view IMO. The usefulness of social media these days has a wide range, how you choose to use them and with what purpose is up to the individual.

"When I use the term [(fascinating)], I mean it"

So do I. I use it a lot about things that attracts my interest on a deeper, stronger level, that's why people will hear me use the word 'interesting' more often.

"a few times I printed out a paragraph or two of urs ... for use when I HAD to be in particularly academic social settings. ... 'Fascinated' me how similar these thinkers aligned with ur thinking at times."

'Academic social settings', riiiight. Who were/are these thinkers, and what do/did they think about my paragraphs?

"[Again, sorry I misunderstood ur comment about nature appreciation. Appreciate your clarifying]"

No worries. Everybody misunderstand things from time to time, and I'm here to clarify as best I can.

Anonymous said...

Sorry for writing again. I feel I missed an important point.

As mentioned, I believe I have a switch. I can be as emotionless as they come. I just don't like being like that. I always preferred honesty, and when I dared to "open up" again, I got the connection. Also the opposite. Some will leave, other will stay. But you will get the real deal. Not a byproduct of some act. It is very uplifting.

Zhawk you're opening up by running this site. You're doing a good thing, mostly for yourself. You will feel, if you still have some feelings kept alive :op (of course you do) that. You are daring yourself. Opening up is probably a lot more scary than a fight. And a lot more rewarding. Both ways.

Good luck. i like your attitude, not your former behaviour though. But you have something within you.

Anonymous said...

Then againg you have cases like tonight. Beign exemplary yet the bartender kicks me out.

Lol. Psychopath modus. Im very probably gonna beat that asshole to his semideath one sunny day.

Damn that hatred. So I put on some song to calm me down. Of course. Im not a psychopath when old times ghost arise. Im worse. I would kill by beating someone with my hands, and just laught. And that is what scares me. It is a fucking sine wave.

My hatred is not psychaptic it is pscychotic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxkB_SMPFkY


Anonymous said...

fuckijng silly psychopaths wannabes.

Just pray that your not meeting a borderliner disliking you. Coz that is not about "being bad". or wanna be fucking tough, I would give you a resonable tune to listen to before

It would this one; And I shall tell you. Fucking wannabees. You dont know hatred. You dont know Jesus.

If you think youre bad. Lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxkB_SMPFkY

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Illuminance said...

Go find Molly and 9/10 "psychopaths" here will suddenly be cured. I guarantee it.

Anonymous said...

Ok Zhawq :)
I respect ur perspective. Sincerely. I suppose the possibilities for those perspectives are as diverse & complicated as are/is any individual?

The assumptions we all make can be unfortunate, but for many, we choose to believe what we want to believe - despite any variables.

Little can alter how the interpreter interprets as interpretations tend to be fairly rooted within intentions.

Respect ur questioning.
It's a way of life for survival for many.

I lean towards the principle that Life is an echo ....

And so, with that firm belief:

* Practicing dishonesty only brings that into my world, so am secure w/myself that I try to avoid its use.

* sending you only the best wishes/energy for ur continued success with ur website .... as well as success in all endeavors and aspects along your journey.
Blessings always.
~Dreama

Anonymous said...

Dear Zhawq,

Finally!! You're back! Not gonna bother asking what took so long.

I was reading up on Satanism, when I noticed a striking resemblance to their beliefs and values and psychopaths. Let me give you an example:
Satanists live by a modified version of the golden rule: "Do unto others as they do unto you."

I really don't think I need to break that down. Maybe you should make an article about this 'fascinating' connection? ^_^

Anonymous said...

Oh man "psychotic drunk rage". Sry for posting a lot of crap above. Sometimes I find hard to understand what I meant myself.

I guess I illustrate well, why "pschopatic traits" may be an asset. Better to just don't get mad or angry about minor issues that seems to repeat themselves. I should need a dose of that carefreeness.

I do have and always had a major problem handling injustice. I need to grow up and stop drinking.

Yaddah yaddah yaddah yaddah. Sry for those irrelevant post full of hard to understand drunk talk and the displacement of my internal frustration.

Anonymous said...

I wonder...can psychopaths recognize sarcasm?

John Nutt said...

@Anonymous (from January 26, 2015 at 4:25 PM).

"I was reading up on Satanism, when I noticed a striking resemblance to their beliefs and values and psychopaths." The satanist bible was heavily influenced by a book called might is right where it is clear the author was a pschopath. Lavey also knew Susan Atkins and at least met Charles Manson. Another Satanist (Nikolas Schreck) did an interview with Manson in 1988 Called Charles Manson superstar. Also Manson founded a neo-nazi satanist group lead by James Mason (called "universal order"). Mason also is obviously a psychopath.

Check out these links if you're "fascinated"

Might is right full text
https://archive.org/stream/MightIsRight_966/MightIsRight_djvu.txt
Charles Manson Superstar
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eh6my9e0NOw
James Mason Wikipedia page
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Mason_(National_Socialist)
James mason interview with televangelist Bob Larson
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X6V7m9XfdCc

Zhawq said...

Anon Jan 24. -15, 10:04 AM:

"As mentioned, I believe I have a switch. I can be as emotionless as they come. I just don't like being like that. I always preferred honesty, and when I dared to "open up" again, I got the connection."

This fits with BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). As a psychopath I have no sense of liking or disliking being so called emotionless because I can't connect, so I have nothing to compare my lack of emotion with.

"Some will leave, other will stay. But you will get the real deal. Not a byproduct of some act. It is very uplifting."

When people react to you, their emotions are real even if they're reacting to manipulation or lies. But I agree, I prefer honesty as well and always have. When I lie it is always because I don't think I can get a good result from being honest - and this is largely based on experience. You learn with time what you can be honest about and you can't.

"Zhawk you're opening up by running this site."

That's true, and I'm being more honest in the last few years here than I have most of my life combined.

"You're doing a good thing, mostly for yourself."

That may be. But I receive a lot of mails from people who tell me they're learning just as much as I am from reading my articles, and that is part of why I keep writing.

"You will feel, if you still have some feelings kept alive :op (of course you do) that."

That's the funny thing: I have come to realize that I don't have the same range of emotions that normal people do. Had it not been for my research that is required to keep this blog, I'd probably still think I was just as capable of all emotions as everybody else. This has been a journey towards self discovery in ways I had never anticipated.

"You are daring yourself."

You can say that. :)

"Opening up is probably a lot more scary than a fight. And a lot more rewarding. Both ways."

No, it's not frightening at all. I can see how it might appear that it would be that way, but it isn't. It's been interesting and sometimes even exciting, but never frightening.

"Good luck. i like your attitude, not your former behaviour though. But you have something within you."

Thank you, I appreciate your kindness. And best of luck to you as well. '^L^,

Zhawq said...

Anon Jan 24, 7:00 PM:

"Im not a psychopath when old times ghost arise. Im worse. I would kill by beating someone with my hands, and just laught."

Are you saying you actually killed people using your hands only? You did this more than once?

"And that is what scares me."

Do you mean you would be scared afterwards because you lost control over your actions?

"My hatred is not psychaptic it is pscychotic."

It does seem that way, yes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxkB_SMPFkY

I will check out the link. Thanks for sharing. '^L^,

Zhawq said...

Jan 24 -15, 7:05 PM:

"fuckijng silly psychopaths wannabes."

Are you the psychologist now, knowing who wants to be a psychopath and who doesn't?

"Just pray that your not meeting a borderliner disliking you."

Get a grip, tough boy, we're on the internet.

"Coz that is not about "being bad". or wanna be fucking tough, I would give you a resonable tune to listen to before"

Then why the line above? Wasn't that you trying to show us how tough you are?

"It would this one; And I shall tell you. Fucking wannabees."

You're rambling.

"You dont know hatred."

I assure you, I have many readers who know hatred!

"You dont know Jesus."

Why don't we leave that up to each person to decide for themselves? Speaking for myself I can tell you that you're right, I don't know Jesus personally, I know him only from the scriptures, and I'm fine with leaving it at that.

"If you think youre bad. Lol"

I don't think I'm bad, others think I'm bad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxkB_SMPFkY

I'll check it out.

Zhawq said...

Anon Jan 24 -15, 7:06 PM:

"I hate most and I love to fight."

You're not alone. Go to a local bar and you should not have a hard time establishing the fact.

"Seriosly I need a fucking psychopath to beat the shit out of.

Give me one. Please me"


Please yourself, go to a local bar with a rough reputation and your dreams will easily be fulfilled - though I have a sense you won't be the 'toughy', and you know it. That's why you're posting here on the internet instead, making a fool out of yourself.

Zhawq said...

Anon:

"Sorry ranting. Fact is i love to fight. I love to beat some shithead and get some peace of mind. But i know it is both stupid and unaccepeted. "Sick" not IMO, fuck that retard society"

I've always loved fighting and have trained martial arts since I was 16. Contrary to what many believe, training martial arts - if you do in the old school way - helps you control your temper. It is, in a sense, very therapeutic, you learn to mediate too, every class starts and ends with meditation.

You mention in an earlier post that many who beat others up are martial artists, and yeah, there's been a tendency towards that. 'We' old schoolers like to say that their sensei is to blame for not teaching his students correctly and for teaching them how to harm before teaching them how not to harm without good reason - that is, in self defense or in defense of others.

It may come as a surprise to many, but I have never used the skills I have from 20 years with training martial arts to hurt another person only for pleasure or to experiment.

"Cut the crap. Aggresion is a bad thing."

Not if you can control it. Aggression is necessary for the survival of our species, but it goes beyond that: We also need aggression in order to survive in life in general, aggression is not always a physical thing.

I understand that you weren't very happy with the posts you left that night, and I've deleted them - except for the first two which I replied to. I don't take it personal, so don't worry about it.

I do think you're right when you say there's a PTSD aspect to your problem with controlling aggression. A good thing is to stay away from alcohol as much as possible, but you already know that. Training martial arts is actually good for you, if you find a good school/teacher who cares about his students and about the 'spirit of budo' <-- that's not Buddha, it's the Spirit of Warfare and of being a successful warrior, both in times of war and in times of peace.

Best of luck ahead.

Zhawq said...

Dreama...

Look, Note, dreama, TNP, whomever, I don't really care what you have to say. I was interested once, but you blew it. If you want my attention so badly, you'll have to do better than this.

"The assumptions we all make can be unfortunate, but for many, we choose to believe what we want to believe - despite any variables."

You're not even fooling yourself. You're a masochist, and that's alright, just don't think I give a damn. Read this: I don't care about punishing you!

"It's a way of life for survival for many."

I should pity you, but I'm not morally capable of doing that.

"I lean towards the principle that Life is an echo ...."

For you it certainly is, you try the same old bullshit over and over.

"And so, with that firm belief:

* Practicing dishonesty only brings that into my world, so am secure w/myself that I try to avoid its use.

Blessings always."


Listen to the echo of empty words...

"~Dreama"

Or The Notable Path...

Zhawq said...

Anon Jan 26, 4:25 PM:

"Dear Zhawq,

Finally!! You're back! Not gonna bother asking what took so long."


I've had a lot of court issues and I've been battling a migraine - never had headaches before, so I'm not handling it that well. But I hope I'll be able to be more present.

"I was reading up on Satanism, when I noticed a striking resemblance to their beliefs and values and psychopaths. Let me give you an example:
Satanists live by a modified version of the golden rule: "Do unto others as they do unto you."

I really don't think I need to break that down.


It's the Machiavellianism that is so common among psychopaths. Satanists are Machiavellanists too, and doubtless many Satanists are also psychopaths. That's not to say there aren't psychopaths among Christians - as well as other religions - there certainly are.

"Maybe you should make an article about this 'fascinating' connection? ^_^"

I actually meant to do just that already a few years back, but time went and I still haven't gotten around to it. Thanks for bringing it up, I'll put it on the list for future article subjects. '^L^,

Zhawq said...

Anon Jan 27, 7:58 AM:

"Sry for posting a lot of crap above. Sometimes I find hard to understand what I meant myself."

I've done and said some pretty weird things when I was drunk. It's part of the reason why I don't drink. I hate not to be in control, and when I think about it, being drunk isn't that fun anyway. It's the first 30 min. before you really get drunk that are the best, so it's basically a question about timing when to stop. I know for most people it isn't easy to find that limit, but it isn't impossible, I did it. Awareness is the first step, and you have that, so I believe you can do it.

"I guess I illustrate well, why "pschopatic traits" may be an asset. Better to just don't get mad or angry about minor issues that seems to repeat themselves. I should need a dose of that carefreeness."

There are pros and cons with everything, buddy. I will never know your passion, and that's an asset right there, it's a matter of finding a way to put it to use in a way that benefits you - and others.

"I do have and always had a major problem handling injustice."

Believe it or not, I have always had an issue with this very thing too (and I'm not the first psychopath to have this hangup).

"I need to grow up and stop drinking."

Think of it this way: "I WANT to stop drinking, so I WILL stop drinking, because I'M in charge of my life, NOTHING can make me drink if I don't want to!"

"Sry for those irrelevant post full of hard to understand drunk talk and the displacement of my internal frustration"

I understand what you're saying, and I've deleted those posts except for the first two which I replied to. Don't take my replies personal, they're meant to be a general response to people who would post like that and actually believe what they say. '^L^,

Zhawq said...

Anon Ja. 28, 1:29 PM:

"I wonder...can psychopaths recognize sarcasm?"

Yes, I/we recognize sarcasm very easily, but it has no effect, meaning it doesn't affect me emotionally, and that is why it sometimes seems as if we (psychopaths) don't understand it.

On the other hand you'll often find that psychopaths can be very good at sarcasm ourselves. I have used sarcasm to break other people's psychological defenses with a single sentence.

K.B said...

Odd when we look at the usage of words. I'm often not sure, but I believe that I have my own iterations of the aforementioned phrases and their meanings. For me, "neat" seems to be more of a shallow or superficial portrayal of interest while "intriguing" takes the place of fascinating. The dichotomy of usage with both of these terms is the same however. Fascinating and Interesting still have their uses however I use them so sparingly that I've never actually analyzed my usages of these. Still this whole topic does make me think a bit more.


As to actually using words with emotions behind them or some sort of emotional substance, your explanation of how there can be times where you've had somewhat "foggy" feeling behind certain situations or words definitely helps me understand a bit more about myself. It is self-discovery and introspection which I am more concerned about, but finding out the parallels between me and another person definitely helps me realize that I am on the right track in terms of having a bit more insight into my diagnosis. Clears things up to know I'm not an anomaly or a case that can't really be explained I tend to dislike when things can't be answered or rationalized.

Anonymous said...

G'day Zhawq,are you playing games again?You were a bit harsh on the borderline dont you think? did he get to you?Also glad that you shared with us your martial arts expertise after so many other stories.20 years?you must be untouchable :)

Anonymous said...

Also what do you think of Iggy Pop? Is he a psychopath? Are YOU IGGY?

Zhawq said...

K B,

I understand what you're saying, and it's true that words help you establish who you are, but you've also got to be careful to not let words and definitions define you to the degree that what is unique about you gets lost.

In the social world that we call society it's a question of finding a balance between something that others can relate to and still maintaining your own self, which no one but you can ever really understand.

It's an ongoing process and work that has no final end result, it will never be finished. That's the frustrating part because it's in human nature to want answers and even absolutes.

Zhawq said...

(Not quite) "Anonymous":

"G'day Zhawq,are you playing games again?"

You're the one who's playing games.

"You were a bit harsh on the borderline dont you think?"

I don't go along with shit and I told you, that's all.

"did he get to you?"

I'm not following. Who are you talking about?

"Also glad that you shared with us your martial arts expertise after so many other stories.20 years?you must be untouchable :)"

My pleasure. I'm glad you like it.

Zhawq said...

Anon Feb. 12.-15, 2:17 AM:

"Also what do you think of Iggy Pop? Is he a psychopath? Are YOU IGGY?"

Now that would be telling. ;)

Okay, I'll answer: No, I'm not Iggy Pop, and I've never been famous to the degree that he is. I do admire him, I think his creativity is highly unique.

I don't know him well enough to say if he's a psychopath. But then again, even if I did know that he was a psychopath I would not say so publicly.

It is one of my principles that I do never 'out' another psychopath (unless he hurts me first), and one reason for this is that I don't want to have a law suit on my ass.

While my website/blog isn't very big (at least not at this time) and most famous people will never read my articles, there are a few who will, and I'm just not willing to take any chances.

K.B said...

Hm, right you are. I just realized how easy that it is to forget one of the most important things about being human in a sense, is the unpredictability and multiplicity of a person's existence. Such essence could never be captured by a single or few words.

Indeed though, that is a difficult task. I've often found that in carrying on an act of normalicy, I can get carried away with trying to blend in and become a new person altogether. Although I've no problem with that aspect of the ruse, it can often leave an isatiable feeling of emptiness in knowing that you're not really connecting with the people that surround you but essentially taking in what they say, processing it like a computer, and just using logic and experience to match up and emulate appropriate responses. At the same time I can't just act natural, especially with a profession as socially geared as a personal trainer. It'd be unsettling to people to have to interact with and be motivated by someone that seems completely aloof. You're right about that balance though. It's something that I'll keep looking for and learning. I suppose thats one of the benefits of not being bothered with the irrationality of emotions is being able to play the role of impartial observer. Definitely helps me do my part of piecing together as much of an understanding of life and normal society as possible.

I'm definitely not bitter about what I am or the challenge that it presents to self-realization. Whether you're a Psychopath/Sociopath/Anti-Social/Borderline/Empath/Neurotypical ect. there is a hand of cards that you're dealt and you can either make the most of them or just fold and give up. I've learned that there is positive potential in any circumstance and giving up is denying yourself your wants, desires, and aspirations. and that is far more inhuman than anything else.

MareBear said...

I'm so... fascinated! I see some posters have played out that word but it truly applies here. I happened to stumble across your site. It is indeed the psych major's wet dream. Thanks for the enlightenment.

Resigned Borderliner said...

Hi. Thank you for your kind respons. Ranting, as in barking at the wrong tree, is for me "disintegration", and god do I hate and feel ashamed when disintegrating.

"I do think you're right when you say there's a PTSD aspect to your problem with controlling aggression. A good thing is to stay away from alcohol as much as possible, but you already know that. Training martial arts is actually good for you"

I have a national ex-"career". If it only were money in that business back then... Thing is, it troubles me. "Why should I not kick the shit out of this bully trying to put me down ?..".. I know the bullies are not MArtists themselves. M artists dont bully. They don't judge superficially. They have troughout their careers seen too many very geek-looking guys, performing class acts in the ring. How many didn't judge Machida as too skinny in his first UFC appearances. Or Anderson Silva.... Good fighters have met those odd-looking types and tend to behave respectful in general. My experience.
Not sure how to explain it. I never get really mad while drunk. It is like the alcohol prohibits that. If injustice happens, someone attacks me, while sober, I can become psychotic. I normally wakes up when I see the blood on the other. My own blood I never pay attention too. Is it empathy ? Or maybe just a sign that one should stop before doing something really horrible. I don't know. I do know that some people I would have found nothing but pure pleasure in beating to death in a anarchistic society. Those are "personal". Revenge. Vendetta. I have doomed them as "untreatable and incapable of regrets for horrendous actions on others".. Not much different thinking than that from the law. The court. The punish one gets though, is often worse than the crime commited. Just buying drugs as an example. One has done nothing bad to anyone but oneself. Yet the psychopatic law system regretlessly sentence such a person, in particularly if he is a man and not a woman, to a ruined life by a longer imprisonment. So who is the real psychopath. Fucking hard to tell...
As for the empathy scale.. I don't really see it big in most normals either. There are some, but not so many. Most people, like you claim to be doing, are guiding themselves by a cold empathy, mind principles, in everyday cases.. I've done a lot of personal social experiments. "How are you ?". Someone may ask me. Then for the fun of it, I start to complain about my life, being honest. Very few of them ask me again about "how I am". Which is what I prefer. I hate superficial conversations. But the lesson is, they don't really care. I just wonder how many of the normal people in the normal society, would mercyless be able to kill people that they disliked if it didn't have any legal and social consequenses. Quite many more than those diagnosed psychopaths.. What I am saying, is that you're not missing out on much. Apart from those few exceptions, where one is really connected emotionally to another person. Maybe you do have those few exceptions?

Resigned Borderliner said...

"Yes, I/we recognize sarcasm very easily, but it has no effect, meaning it doesn't affect me emotionally, and that is why it sometimes seems as if we (psychopaths) don't understand it."
Strange thing. I just get bored. So I pretend I didn't get it. More like I feel sorry for the sender, that he is of such a low intelligence that he couldn't produce something better. If the sarcasm is really goood, I appreciate it, even more if it is directed towards me.


"On the other hand you'll often find that psychopaths can be very good at sarcasm ourselves. I have used sarcasm to break other people's psychological defenses with a single sentence."

Oh shit. Maybe I do need to have a brain scan to figure myself out.. One could add my fascination by "fascinating"..


"G'day Zhawq,are you playing games again?You were a bit harsh on the borderline dont you think? "

I'd disagree.


"It's an ongoing process and work that has no final end result, it will never be finished. That's the frustrating part because it's in human nature to want answers and even absolutes."

So it is human nature to have a need of control. I thought that was on the PCL-R checklist.. Hm...





"I'm definitely not bitter about what I am or the challenge that it presents to self-realization. Whether you're a Psychopath/Sociopath/Anti-Social/Borderline/Empath/Neurotypical ect. there is a hand of cards that you're dealt and you can either make the most of them or just fold and give up.

Yeah.. Just don't do crimes. If one has too, don't get caught :p. Or do crimes for the society. Become a POLICE, special force, or soldier... (I'm still hoping to see some true marketing one day)

Anonymous said...

Hello Zhawq! I was reading your response to my question (mine was the one about sarcasm), and it got me thinking...have you ever used sarcasm to break someone down psychologically, for whatever reason, and failed? It had no effect on them? If not, how would you react? Would you come to the conclusion that they too were psychopathic? Would you get angry? Would you just let it go and ignore it?

Resigned Borderliner said...

"Hello Zhawq! I was reading your response to my question (mine was the one about sarcasm), and it got me thinking...have you ever used sarcasm to break someone down psychologically, for whatever reason, and failed? It had no effect on them? If not, how would you react? Would you come to the conclusion that they too were psychopathic? Would you get angry? Would you just let it go and ignore it?"

Interesting question. I look forward to a respons.

Whatever I am, here is what would happen in my case. I would have appreciated that other person. It would have meant, in my view, that I had met a person that I could have discussed plenty of other stuff with, and not use a mental filter so that the person wouldn't take things personally, which weren't meant personally.

One can have more interesting talks with many non-sensitives. About f.ex the human condition. About the darker sides of every human. There is no need for some hollywood version of "50 shades of grey" or stand up comedian to talk about sensitive issues everything is thinking, but few dares to speak loudly in respect of others "feelings". (Those feelings are mostly self-entitlement and false-ego by the normal narcissist. Narcissist do get offended, if "caught". I don't. Then again I hardly ever bluff).

48 Shades of Genius said...

To anonymous, even though sarcasm can be used to actually break down someone psychologically, it usually has to be well placed, much like many other tactics like gaslighting and the like. If it were me in that situation and I noticed that it had no effect, then thankfully because of the nature of sarcasm, failure in the desired result can just be ignored. I personally wouldn't get angry, but then again me and zhawq have different personalities. As for considering them to be psychopathic, that seems like too much preemptivity and jumping the gun. There would need to be more evidence than just a missed armor piercing statement.

Just my take on the scenario... Take it how you may.

Tom Arrow said...

Zhawq,

would you explain your use of smileys? They seem out of place to me. Is that on purpose?

Have you ever used strong psychedelic drugs like DMT? If so, how was your experience? I am asking because I had a terrifying experience where I saw the devil in the shaman. The experience was profound enough for me not to want to do it ever again. I have never experienced such a strong and clear emotion of terror. I'm very curious on your take on this and, if existing, your personal experience. Is that just hormones, distorted memories and stuff in the brain? Or is there a spirit?

Zhawq, are you ever curious about things like consciousness and where it comes from? Do you have theories about that?

I am VERY interested in your take on self-help and motivational stuff. And on manosphere sites like www.returnofkings.com. How do you objectively perceive the dynamic on these sites between authors and commentators, possibly from a Machiavellian perspective? What are the visitors motivations to read? Do you think people are wise to be there and will find improvement in their lives? Or are they just sheep to be herded through their insecurities?

I read your sentence above:

"I WANT to stop drinking, so I WILL stop drinking, because I'M in charge of my life, NOTHING can make me drink if I don't want to!"

That sounds like some of the more classic examples of motivation. A bit corny actually. From a point of being not dominated by your emotions, I can totally understand why you would give such advice. Do you think it is helpful? I propose that normal people, rather than to override their emotions, have to make them work for them through comprehension and integration. Whenever I have tried to simply ignore them, I failed in the long run. Why? Because they would, in a way, slowly be amplified and at some point become intolerable.

Best regards,
Tom

Resigned Borderliner said...

I think Arrow may be touching something very interesting.

I get your (Zahwks) advice. "Just stop drinking". I'd suggest approximately the same. "Just stop being criminal!".

Some of us do have a long history of practice in ignoring our own feelings as comes with the role of being some other persons emotional servant (parents, spouse or whoever).

It isn't that hard. To turn them off, I mean. Most people do it to some degree each day, while at work. Just to even get out of bed to go to work.

What is hard though, is to do it while preserving any feeling of meaning of life, enjoyment, avoiding restlessness and also any connection/empathy with others, to varying degrees.
And I would argue and speculate, that the points mentioned can be felt, in many a group thinking and conform societies. Japan, Germany.. Western civilization 100 years ago.


The worse hell you been through, the harder it gets, avoiding disintegration. Solitary confinement, is IMO, pure torture for a persons mind. It is like the medieaval witch hunting.

Bind some rocks on her body, throw her in the water. And if she fleet, she is a 100% witch, and has to be burned.

Psychopathy suspicion. Solitary confinement. If he (never women who gets that shit) "survives", as in no suicide and no schizophrenia, he must be a psychopath. In the process, one has to become one or already be one, to survive, depending on how long one is in such a hell hole of a place. I also do believe one can normalize to a very decent degree after such a horror. You, Zhawq, seem to be a potential there.



BTW:
I am not in charge of my life. Neither are you. We, all the sheep of society, are only allowed to deal with minor stuff and details.
Where are not even allowed to choose when to die, if hospitalized with a deadly disease :).


Resigned Borderliner said...

Short version:

If someone is forced to turn off feelings for him/herself, it is darn hard to feel sorry for others.

Potential consequence:
From super rich CEO to death row criminal. Or none.

This is why solitary confinement is "psychopath school". Best survived by not paying attention to feelings. At least not feelings that concerns one owns ego. And as a byproduct one also gets to see how sadistic and cruel, that other side of "western democratic and human society" can be. Which again makes it even tougher and more scary, to later in life turn on feelings, if/when given the chance.

That said, I personally find a life without emotions utterly meaningless and empty.

This binary mumbo jumbo about people either have feelings (1) or none (0), is hilarious to me. It is just a need to explain the universe combined with a lack of mental resource. So we invent God like creatures and other stupid ideas.
(For the record, my own personal switch I claim to have, is never 0 or 1. I do admit what seems to be a larger variance, than I find in most people)

Zhawq said...

K.B

"it can often leave an isatiable feeling of emptiness in knowing that you're not really connecting with the people that surround you but essentially taking in what they say, processing it like a computer, and just using logic and experience to match up and emulate appropriate responses."

What you describe here isn't very typical for psychopaths but perhaps more so for people with BPD which is also a cluster B condition. The reason you can have this feeling of emptiness would be that you have some sort of experience with the real thing so you know what you're lacking on an emotional level. As a psychopath I have never had that feeling.

"At the same time I can't just act natural, especially with a profession as socially geared as a personal trainer. It'd be unsettling to people to have to interact with and be motivated by someone that seems completely aloof."

Again my experience is very different. People feel very much connected to me and I am often told how down to earth I am, though there are some situations where a certain aloofness sets in, that's when I am disrespected, but I can switch back just as quickly.

Are you sure people think of you as being aloof, have anybody told you so? Maybe you just feel aloof? Of course, if that's the case it may show in your behavior and mannerism, but it is something you can work with and change if you want to.

"I suppose thats one of the benefits of not being bothered with the irrationality of emotions is being able to play the role of impartial observer."

It's not a role. It's my natural position. The play comes in when I pick sides because I can so easily see both.

"Definitely helps me do my part of piecing together as much of an understanding of life and normal society as possible."

Being impartial, you mean? Yes, I think it is something all people ought to train themselves to do more - not all of the time, but some of the time, because it will help them understand the other party's side when in a conflict and understand that not everything is black and white.

"I'm definitely not bitter about what I am or the challenge that it presents to self-realization."

That is good. Being bitter is a waste of emotion and energy and will stand in your way. While it can't always be helped, it is certainly not something I'll advice you to inger on.

"Whether you're a Psychopath/Sociopath/Anti-Social/Borderline/Empath/Neurotypical ect. there is a hand of cards that you're dealt and you can either make the most of them or just fold and give up."

Well said.

"I've learned that there is positive potential in any circumstance .."

Well, let's just say there is positive potential in most circumstance. :)

".. and giving up is denying yourself your wants, desires, and aspirations. and that is far more inhuman than anything else."

You probably hit the nail straight on with this one. It is in human nature - as in any nature, animal or otherwise - to aspire for something greater, to let that drive pull you towards the ultimate outcome, whichever that is, and it's different for each of us. The one thing that is not humane, not in human nature or in the nature of being alive is to give up on your own potential or that of your offspring and family.

But when that is said, there's also the opposite side, and we all know it: If there's black, then there's white. If there's happiness, then there's sadness. And if there's humane, then there's also inhumane. And so it is true, atrocities can be committed by human beings, and even more to the point, the same human being who commit atrocities can create great wonders and do deeds of good. It's happening all the time. '^L^,

Zhawq said...

MareBear wrote:

"I'm so... fascinated!"

Lol, good one. :)

"I see some posters have played out that word but it truly applies here."

Thank you, I know you mean it. I found it funny because we've been discussing how psychopaths allegedly use the sentiment 'I'm so fascinated' a lot more than non-psychopaths do (according to dr. Robert D. Hare).

"I happened to stumble across your site. It is indeed the psych major's wet dream."

actually kept this blog as part of an arrangement I had with my "parole team". I was released early because I have agreed to participate in a psychopathy research project that can potentially last for the rest of my life. Part of the agreement was that I wrote a weekly report about anything I wanted to write about - there were no guidelines or questionaires connected to this part of the agreement - and then I'd present it to the board. I then became interested in learning about psychopathy myself and got the idea of posting my thoughts and findings online in the form of a blog, and this has resulted in quite a lot of attention from the community of forensics, psychiatrists and psychologists, neuropsychologists, etc., mostly professionals who research psychopathy. They don't make themselves known much, at least not in the form of comments, but it's good to know I'm not shouting for def ears. - I have had a few emails from researchers expressing something like what you're saying, though.

"Thanks for the enlightenment."

You're welcome. I hope you'll continue to find my texts interesting. '^L^,

Zhawq said...

Resigned Borderliner:

"Hi. Thank you for your kind respons. Ranting, as in barking at the wrong tree, is for me "disintegration", and god do I hate and feel ashamed when disintegrating."

I think we've all been there at one time or another. The trick is to leave it behind, don't let it get to you, just learn from it.

"I have a national ex-"career". If it only were money in that business back then..."

I was thinking the same thing back when, lol. But then, if I had been able to make money from fighting I wouldn't have experienced business the way I did.

"Thing is, it troubles me. "Why should I not kick the shit out of this bully trying to put me down ?..".."

You know why.

"seen too many very geek-looking guys, performing class acts in the ring."

I had a period - it was just a couple of months - if I was really pissed over something I would use the geek look to lure bullies into a fight. Buy a cheap pair of glasses from the stand at the corner and mannerism would do the rest. It was so easy I'd always end up laughing my ass off, even when at times I took some of the beating myself. It was just too funny.

Did I ever mention that I love to laugh. I do. It isn't a very common trait among psychopaths, in fact the opposite is more common though I have met a few who had the same thing with laughing as I do. I think it's helped me survive in many cases, and it is definitely one of the things that makes life worth living to me. But that's another topic.

"I never get really mad while drunk. It is like the alcohol prohibits that."

That's unusual, I'd say. Have you thought of doing some research on this?

"If .. someone attacks me, while sober, I can become psychotic. I normally wakes up when I see the blood on the other. My own blood I never pay attention too. Is it empathy ?"

I don't know. Is it?

"Or maybe just a sign that one should stop before doing something really horrible."

That at least shows that you know what is considered horrible. The question is if you feel it too, and if you "wake up" from the blood rage before that point, it suggests that it is more than just knowledge, you feel it too and have some level of empathy. Indeed, I don't think your problem is lack of empathy, I think you have temper and anger issues, and I can understand why it haunts you. I have been at the verge of loosing control a few times and it frightened me badly, so I can only wonder how it must be to go through what you describe.

continues...

Zhawq said...

Resigned Borderliner, continued...

As for the law system, I'm sure most who have had any contact with it can agree there are grave imbalances interwoven in the whole practice. Some people get killed for what I have done, others who have killed perhaps hundreds by means of corrupt dealings and deliberately failing to fulfill their obligations, shady business deals etc. etc., get 3-4 years in prison whereupon they can continue their lives in the fast lane.

"As for the empathy scale.. I don't really see it big in most normals either."

You have to get close to people in order to see it. If you live at the brink of society you're not likely to ever experience it, because normal people are culturally groomed to not have empathy for those who are 'different', not normal or 'not us'.

"Most people .. are guiding themselves by a cold empathy."

No, quite the contrary, most people are guided automatically by their emotions which again are to not like those who are different. This is the coldness you sense, not lack of emotion, but negative emotion that makes them shut you off.

"they don't really care."

Why would they care if they don't know you? Most people have plenty of things and people to care about and they automatically withdraw if someone approaches them with a story about how bad their situation is the very first time they meet.

"How are you?" may be seen as superficial, but it's really just a way of social interaction to establish that everything is as usual, there's no need to worry or be afraid. People need that reassurance and therefore it has it's justified place in everyday interaction.

"I just wonder how many of the normal people in the normal society, would mercyless be able to kill people that they disliked if it didn't have any legal and social consequenses."

Approximately 80% of the population would be able to do that if given any reason and confirmation that they wouldn't be held accountable after the deed.

"Quite many more than those diagnosed psychopaths.."

We can't really compare psychopaths with normal people in this regard because psychopaths are different in between. Some would kill anybody and everybody given the chance, while others wouldn't kill anyone unless they themselves decided to, no matter what the consequences or lack thereof.

"What I am saying, is that you're not missing out on much. Apart from those few exceptions, where one is really connected emotionally to another person. Maybe you do have those few exceptions?"

I've had a few cases where I'd say I could've had a connection if something hadn't gotten in the way. I had such a situation two years ago but was arrested, was yanked away and unable to communicate with the other person for about 6 months or so, and when I finally could communicate, she had cut the lines. We had someone who could've helped and who had been an mediator before, but this person now happened to be very ill and in hospital, so... well. - But to put it short, I haven't really had any cases of true connection, only a very few close ones.

Zhawq said...

Anon, Feb. 17, 2015 at 9:17 AM,

I've definitely used sarcasm to break people psychologically. It's a very effective tool in that regard because you can mask your intentions and easily plant uncertainty, thus make sure there's no way for the other person to address covert attacks.

Of course there have been times when it didn't work, where the other person just didn't get it, or where he got it but didn't take the bait or simply wasn't affected the way I intended him to be. In hindsight there are at least two such individuals who without a doubt were psychopaths, but remember, until little more than 3 years ago I didn't know how to spot psychopaths, and on one of these occasions I was only around 20 years old myself, so I was somewhat puzzled when I didn't get a reaction. Indeed, I would think about it on and off for several months until I simply concluded there were other people like myself. This again set me on a path towards finding such other people - psychopaths, as it were - hoping to learn from them. And I did. On that note it was funny to observe that they became puzzled much in the same way that I had been when I didn't react the way they expected me to react to their attempts at controlling me and making me feel uneasy and insecure (<-- this is a common tactic when you want to control somebody and many, if not most, psychopaths start out with that).

It has never made me angry when my sarcasm didn't work. At times I would try again because often it is simply because people didn't get it the first time, or I will try with a different sarcastic angle, but I can quickly tell if it won't work in which case I simply leave it alone - and walk away (there's no point in sticking around with people you can't build any rapport with, be it positive or negative/abusive).

Zhawq said...

Tom Arrow wrote:

"would you explain your use of smileys? They seem out of place to me. Is that on purpose?"

I have two kinds of smileys. One kind is the same kind that most people use, y'know: :) and so on. And then there's this one: '^L^, I think of that as a kind of 'signature'.

"Have you ever used strong psychedelic drugs like DMT? If so, how was your experience? I am asking because I had a terrifying experience where I saw the devil in the shaman."

You had what is called a 'bad trip'. I've never had a bad trip, only good ones. The effect of psychedelics vary slightly between the types. LSD is my favorite, though mescal and cylocybine mushrooms are good as well, they just come with some side effects that LSD doesn't have.

"The experience was profound enough for me not to want to do it ever again."

That is a wise choice. If you've had a bad trip once you're much more likely to have another one, and they can tend to become worse with each try. Psychedelics change you in fundamental ways and isn't something to be taken for fun if you ask me. It does seem to be different for psychopaths though, perhaps because we don't have the same easy triggering of the amygdala which governs fear, sleep, and other fundamental functions.

"Is that just hormones, distorted memories and stuff in the brain? Or is there a spirit?"

Everything we experience we experience as a result of hormones and workings of the brain which also stores memory; therefore memory is also part of what creates our reality moment by moment.

If you witnessed a spirit, then it is real even if others can't experience it like you do (or did). Hallucinations is just a word for experiencing things that others don't experience with you. It doesn't make it less real, though it can be disruptive and is often part of a psychosis or an actual mental illness such as schizophrenia.

What makes hallucinations so unbelievable is the personal character of the phenomena that is being experienced. This is so because we experience everything through a filter called 'my version of reality' which again relies on the outcome of a combination of inherit personality and life experience.

In saying this you see that there is no such thing as a complete objective reality. Or rather, there may be, but we will never know because we can't experience it because we experience everything through the filter of who we are in time and space.

Ergo you experienced something real, and occult traditions of all times warn against seeking out experiences that haven't been well understood first. This is why LSD and psychedelics in general are so dangerous and basically should be left alone or only used in small dosages and controlled environments.

"Zhawq, are you ever curious about things like consciousness and where it comes from? Do you have theories about that?"

Yes, I'm curious, but I don't have an answer that I can back up. I think consciousness is the result of spontaneous mutation.

"I am VERY interested in your take on self-help and motivational stuff."

Continues...

Zhawq said...

Tom Arrow, continued...

I believe it is with self help and motivational stuff as it is with everything in life: It works for some people but not for others. There are also a multitude of self help systems, and the same goes for them: The system that works for you may not work for the next guy. To make the best of life and yourself is a very personal matter, and I believe only very few can rely purely on somebody else's system. What we can do is pick what we feel hits home for us in each system and each book, and thereby make our own personalized custom made system.

"And on manosphere sites like www.returnofkings.com. How do you objectively perceive the dynamic on these sites between authors and commentators, possibly from a Machiavellian perspective?"

I can't answer those questions. The only knowledge I have of self help is from books I found in the prison library.

"What are the visitors motivations to read?"

Self improvement would be my guess?

"Do you think people are wise to be there and will find improvement in their lives? Or are they just sheep to be herded through their insecurities?"

People in general are sheep who wants to be herded through their insecurities. But there are always individuals here and there who have genuine reasons and who are capable of thinking for themselves. These may find something to gain from such websites though I would rather put my bet on books because they allow a person to sit solitarily and read without any disturbance from advertisements and heated debates.

"I read your sentence above:

"I WANT to stop drinking, so I WILL stop drinking, because I'M in charge of my life, NOTHING can make me drink if I don't want to!"

That sounds like some of the more classic examples of motivation. A bit corny actually. From a point of being not dominated by your emotions, I can totally understand why you would give such advice. Do you think it is helpful?"


I didn't have the person beside me and my knowledge about him is limited, therefore I couldn't give more detailed personal advice. And corny as it may be, what I said is still true. If the guy is in a receptive state of mind when he reads it, it just may be the thing that'll help him turn his life around, take it into his own hands and out of the bottle, so to speak. - You see, another point is that sometimes it is not so much what is being said as who says it that provides the little extra that's needed for someone to change.

"I propose that normal people, rather than to override their emotions, have to make them work for them through comprehension and integration. Whenever I have tried to simply ignore them, I failed in the long run. Why? Because they would, in a way, slowly be amplified and at some point become intolerable."

I agree, this is how it will go in most cases. Very few can pull it off to simply 'cut off' the pathways in their nervous system that gives life to those emotions that they don't want to experience. And even when it does work, there will be times when you have to cut the pathway again because it tends to grow back.

Best regards,
Tom


Thank you, and likewise. '^L^,

Zhawq said...

Resigned Borderliner:

"Some of us do have a long history of practice in ignoring our own feelings as comes with the role of being some other persons emotional servant (parents, spouse or whoever).

It isn't that hard. To turn them off, I mean. Most people do it to some degree each day, while at work. Just to even get out of bed to go to work."


I beg to differ. It is hard. If it was easy we wouldn't have so many people on anti depressants or on alcohol i.e. drugs. Though undeniably it is at it's core a very simple thing to stop doing this or that, it's a mistake to think it's easy.

"What is hard though, is to do it while preserving any feeling of meaning of life, enjoyment, avoiding restlessness and also any connection/empathy with others, to varying degrees."

See this is the real problem. The rest are symptoms which is why they aren't easy to deal with.

"And I would argue and speculate, that the points mentioned can be felt, in many a group thinking and conform societies. Japan, Germany.. Western civilization 100 years ago."

You forget number one on the list (but everybody does, they're very good at disguising their inherent illness): Scandinavia. ;)

"Bind some rocks on her body, throw her in the water. And if she fleet, she is a 100% witch, and has to be burned."

I see what you mean. It's as if nothing you can do will make things better, like being doomed.

"Psychopathy suspicion. Solitary confinement. If he (never women who gets that shit)..."

True, they get ignored with overbearing smiles instead.

"..."survives", as in no suicide and no schizophrenia, he must be a psychopath. In the process, one has to become one or already be one, to survive, depending on how long one is in such a hell hole of a place. I also do believe one can normalize to a very decent degree after such a horror. You, Zhawq, seem to be a potential there."

Well my hope is difficult to kill, anyway. But sometimes you can get so at odds with a place, your whole relationship with everyone in your surroundings so poisoned that the best option is to leave, move and start over somewhere else. Even if you have no money. They one thing you must have is belief in yourself and that you can do it.

"I am not in charge of my life. Neither are you. We, all the sheep of society, are only allowed to deal with minor stuff and details."

That's a very sad way of looking at it, though I won't deny that it is true from a certain perspective. The key here must be to not take things too seriously.

"Where are not even allowed to choose when to die, if hospitalized with a deadly disease :)."

An optimist would say "Where there's will there's a way". '^L^,

Tom Arrow said...

Thanks a lot, these are interesting anwers.

Do you mind if I cite your responses in articles on my blog?

Tom Arrow said...

FIY, to clarify me saying that I don't ever want to do psychedelics again. I made it sound like it's a choice, but the truth is that I doubt my mind would let me do it again. While merely recalling the event is bearable, actually trying to decide on doing it again fills me with a profound sense of apprehension which I would spontaneously translate as: This is wrong. It was the devil. Do not do it.

Despite the fact that I consider myself rational, this knowledge sits so deeply now that it is, in way, more real than my objective understanding of things. It keeps saying: You know it was the devil. You survived once. Be fool enough to challenge him again and you will be lost in hell.

Interesting to know in that context is that my mother suffers from some kind of psychosis and takes psychic medication. Never found out what it was, though.

Anonymous said...

I read your notice. I hope your okay, or better.

It came to my mind that "psychopath and heath" equals something constant and slightly untouchable. That is how gas lightning about mental health also can effect the upon physical health

Take care of yourself and then take your time with the next article.
(Still ...patiently...as I can't be....looking forward to it)

RB

Zhawq said...

Tom Arrows, you wrote:

"Thanks a lot, these are interesting anwers.

Do you mind if I cite your responses in articles on my blog?"


You are very welcome to quote both my articles and my comment responses at your website. All I ask that you do is link back to where you found what you are quoting and give me due credit (that just means that you name me by name - or, in this case by nick, :) - and link back to the URL from where you are quoting).

I hope it is likewise okay if I pay your blog a visit? '^L^,

Zhawq said...

Part 1
..........
Tom Arrow,

first of all I apologize for misspelling your name in my previous reply to you.

You wrote:
"I doubt my mind would let me do [psychedelics] again."

I understand completely. There's a difference between a freely made, conscious, choice, and a likewise conscious choice, but which is more of a necessity forced upon you by the emotions considering the opposite brings forth in you.

I'm aware that feelings, or emotions, can be at least as powerful as the sturdiest, unrelenting, empowered, and undestructable matgeristical construct can bring upon anyone. In other words, there are things more terrifying than death. I'm aware of that (even though many people - not just psychopaths, but normal people, are not).

"Despite the fact that I consider myself rational, this knowledge sits so deeply now that it is, in way, more real than my objective understanding of things."

How well put. This is one of the things we talk about when we try to explain to people that supernatural experiences are at least as real as our all's everyday reality that we know so well, grew up with, and was taught about.

"It keeps saying: You know it was the devil. You survived once. Be fool enough to challenge him again and you will be lost in hell."

A psychiatrist would say it is your self preservation speaking from your subconscious, but a well versed in spiritual matters (matters to do with the wider reality) would say that it is just his way of trying to put into words what he doesn't really understand. A Christian pater would say you have met the Devil as Christians perceive him, and they'll tell you you are hearing God's voice telling you to stay away.

Maybe you already what the real truth is, maybe you will find out in 20 years from now, but at least you know this is something you are not ready to face, otherwise you would not be so frightened by it.

Zhawq said...

Part 2
..........
Tom Arrow...

When the supernatural shows itself to us as something deeply and profoundly terrifying, it is it's way of saying we aren't ready, or maybe this part of the wider reality is simply not meant for us.

"Interesting to know in that context is that my mother suffers from some kind of psychosis and takes psychic medication. Never found out what it was, though."

I can't answer that or explain it, because I don't know anything about your life and her life and the connection between the two of you and how it influences and is influenced by the rest of the family's lifestyle, problems, ways, wishes, aspirations, etc. etc.

In fact this was probably meant to be a message, but since you didn't have the necessary information beforehand - knowledge about the Wider Reality, about it's Rules, it's Rituals, and how it most often communicates - all of this makes it next to impossible to tell what that 'message' meant. It could simply be a warning to say "If you don't back off now..." and so on. And finally it may very well have been heavily influenced by how you felt at the time. You were already in fear, maybe terrified or close to being so, and everything we experience in The Wider Reality is influenced by our thoughts and emotions when we start "the journey". This is why meditation is so widely used by shaman and other traditional Spirit World Communicators and Mediators. Indeed, they often spend most of a whole day plus a whole night in deep concentration to prepare themselves.

I'd say you're wise to take the experience serious. Don't pursue it further. You can read about these matters, but don't choose these popular "New Age" kind of books. If you must study (if your soul keeps calling for you to do it), choose some of the old, traditional texts. And stick with reading, don't experiment.

When the time comes, and you are indeed chosen, you won't have to do anything to gain the attention or affection of anyone. The right One will come to you, and there will be no more fear or terror. That's how you'll know.

Addition: This is guidance meant for the lonely seeker. For he who does not have a teacher/guru/advisor/guide or whichever names they go by.

To find a teacher or guide is widely wanted and just as widely sought. But I would personally dissuade you from trying to find such a person. By far the most of them are not there to do you good but to harm. They want not to help you but to help their own pockets or, just as common, their own egos. They life to feel powerful and have followers. But their hearts are full of lies behind their benevolent smiles.

Stay as far aways from these would-be advicros and wise men, for they bring you no good.

If you are meant to meet such a person - and very few are! - they will come to you when it's time, without followers and signs of magical or intellectual power. And it won't matter if you're 40 or 68. In a sense age only helps because it gives you life experience with so many things that cannot be learned any other way.

But more likely than not, no one will come. In these times the chosen are usually alone. It makes it hard to be a seeker, but then that's not surprising considering the fact that being a seeker of the spiritual is the hardest destiny, the hardest job, the hardest journey, and the hardest craft to master.

Good luck, my friend, with life and with what you seek but do not know that you seek. I wish you - and everybody else like you, who may read this - the best of luck and an easy ride through your long journey.

Don't forget it can be joyful! '^L^,

Zhawq said...

RB,

"I read your notice. I hope your okay, or better."

Thank you. It goes up and down. Mentally I feel better, but I think I have a tough ride in front of my physically. - I'll prevail, though, I always do....Thanks for asking. '^L^,

"It came to my mind that "psychopath and heath" equals something constant and slightly untouchable. That is how gas lightning about mental health also can effect the upon physical health"

There are so many things that have occurred, but rarely made it through the needle eye to be empirically tried which is necessary by most of today's scientific standards to be approved as 'real' and therefore acceptable. And truth be told, most of the more obscure examples of what appears to be miraculous healing, turns out to be one-time events, if still unexplainable by established science.

I'm sure a lot of so called miraculous healings are exactly that, miraculous as in spiritually originating, but for as far as we can't repeat them, we're no further to a useful method of reproducing a positive change for the good of mankind - at least not with regard to that matter.

"Take care of yourself"

Thank you, my friend. I think I will try an experiment, if it's alright with you...I'm going to write your words down and keep them near some texts I've written myself and which I sometimes look at for specific purposes. In this case I will see if it somehow helps me take note of what is written, even if it's pretty much the same as I've written myself. The idea is to see if somehow reading the same idea/guidance from another's pen will have a different impact upon me.

I will not say more at this point, but if it has any effect at all, I'll tell you about it here below.

"and then take your time with the next article.
(Still ...patiently...as I can't be....looking forward to it)

RB"


I know, I know. I cut too many corners, lol. But I still have that knowledge there are Readers waiting for the next entry. - And yeah, if I had nothing to write about I might be excused, but I have plenty I'd love to put on paper.

But at the end of the day I know very well where the devil is at. The problem is not that I can't find the problem, but that I can't find the solution to it - at least not fast enough for my psyche to not take some serious blows first.

But hey, I haven't given up just yet, and I always win, I always come back, and I always find a way when there seems to be none!

Thank you for some good advice, because what you said is sometimes exactly what must be done. Well seen, buddy!...

And thank you also for caring; it gives a nice feeling sometimes! '^L^,

Tom Arrow said...

Thank you for taking the time, Zhawq. I haven't read your replies as I posted on your new articles so consider some of the question - as about the devil - as answered.

Of course, feel free to visit my blog. My writing is as honest as I consciously can be at the moment, although you will probably notice a tendency for fancy words here and there - I'm only slowly starting to learn to focus more on substance, less on appearance. Feel welcome to comment, too. I enjoy the exchange with you.

"A psychiatrist would say it is your self preservation speaking from your subconscious, but a well versed in spiritual matters (matters to do with the wider reality) would say that it is just his way of trying to put into words what he doesn't really understand."

That's so funny. As I mentioned in my comments to your new article, the kind of knowledge the psychiatrist uses can only describe rational connections - what kind of observable … thing … leads to another. That's fine as long as you just want to see patterns, but as noted, once you've been in the rabbit hole, you start to see the limitations of rational thought.

"When the supernatural shows itself to us as something deeply and profoundly terrifying, it is it's way of saying we aren't ready, or maybe this part of the wider reality is simply not meant for us."

True, I was not ready for it. But it may only have been deeply ingrained moral judgment that kept me from accepting what I saw. I think I will be ready for it some day when I reach a certain amount of inner peace and stoicism.

"And finally it may very well have been heavily influenced by how you felt at the time. You were already in fear, maybe terrified or close to being so, and everything we experience in The Wider Reality is influenced by our thoughts and emotions when we start "the journey"."

Yeah, I was rather socially anxious (preoccupied with my self-image) when I went on the journey. I was also cultivating a lot of anger without knowing what it was about yet. It is common knowledge that drugs emphasize what you feel, but nothing could have prepared me for it. When you smugly learn about drugs at school, you think you're so smart and know it all. You think: I know what will happen and I will realize it's not true. But then you are there and realize that "truth" is merely another emotional judgment and that the smugness and intellect were anchored in a world that might not even be "real". It's like dreaming about somebody who tells you that it is impossible to jump. Then you wake up and jump. Bad rhetorics, but you get my point.

Tom Arrow said...

"If you must study (if your soul keeps calling for you to do it), choose some of the old, traditional texts. And stick with reading, don't experiment."
I experiment when I find the time, without drugs. I have bought a black eye mask and sometimes look at the images behind my eyes, so to speak. From time to time, I have really scary dreams. I am starting to think that it may be partly a decision whether you have positive or negative visions. That fear and desire are two sides of the same coin and you merely decide from which side to see it. Will you name some material that you would be curious to see me read?

"To find a teacher or guide is widely wanted and just as widely sought. But I would personally dissuade you from trying to find such a person."
Be careful, you're setting yourself up to be this person. I relish your clear writing and thoughts, it feels like medicine compared to newspapers and popular media. But you probably have enough life experience to know that.
As noted in your newer article, I am staying away from advisers. Or, at least, I am trying to consider their words with curiosity rather than with need:
http://manwithoutfather.com/how-to-read-me/

"… and an easy ride through your long journey."
Do you mean my life? It was two seconds. Or was it eternity? How do I know. Thank you.

Must it be joyful? I don't want to be chasing joy, after all. On the other hand, not chasing anything is joyful in itself.

Be well.

Tom

Anonymous said...

Masochist?
Hmmmm?
well, in the sense that I DO find the silver lining (hence gratification) inherent in ANY experience, I guess ok, sure? Maybe not at the exact time of every experience, but after a couple years at this, I'm pretty good w/finding SOMETHING positive (or gratifying) in the wisdom gained from every experience fairly quickly. Tend to avoid the overtly negative or painful experiences when foresight or intuition affords such ... unless the interaction is necessary, of course. Or along the lines of just having fun w/out fear of negative outcomes? I mean shit DOES happen .... Life's what you make it, right?


The life is an echo concept is basically that which you put into the world comes back into ur own. I'm a believer, fer sure. Hanging w/kids, friends, now released ex, sometimes co-workers, gardening in florals, yoga classes, surfing or in the pool w/a good glass of Reisling and a book are far more pleasurable experiences personally to get gratification from, lol. Or scouring Craigslist for last minute (& cheaper) event tickets when a month goes by without anything fun goin on fun too .... highly recommend the Stones Concert - on the floor. Those loud ass amps were painful at times to my sound sensitivities and I DID love it, so ya got me there tho ;-P

Not sure about ur perception of my dissappointment in your reluctance to punish me comes from? Uh, actually, *shrug* I think (?) a Thank you is in order? Or ur perception I was/am trying to get your attention? And perception that I might be offended by your "rejections"?

Seriously, there was a time we merely exchanged ideas/thoughts as bloggers do, or sought clarifications of such, and I admit I apparently misunderstood generally neutral or positive intentions towards each as bloggers, but hey ho ... wth? Guess I'm equally confused w/your negative assertions? I mean look, no judging here & whether good or bad, an infrequent visit and comment exchange doesn't go THAT far nowadays, does it? Not that ur comments didn't dissappoint and all .... Uh, good job there (?) .... but seriously? Kinda appears you receive gratification in demeaning another. That's on you, not me? Why would I take that personally? We don't know each other so how much impact could the comments have?

Guess you don't buy into the "life is an echo" concept, huh? Hahaha. Too bad :(

Ok. So whether someone pissed in your corn flakes that day OR that was just you being you, either way, my well wishes stand ;)

Seems ur having some physical health problems and for those, genuinely sending you best wishes to get much better real quick. Body affects the mind, so be well Zhawq. I won't stop by anymore since this negative stuff just isn't good for anybody. Don't want that.

Thanks for the insights I gleened along the way. Good stuff. Take care.

MarigoldRan said...

Big difference between "this is so interesting" and "this is interesting."

The former is a lie. The latter is not. A single extra word but it makes a hug difference.