Tuesday, July 12, 2011

Reactions on The Internet: Sociopaths.

In the two first articles I described the reactions towards me as a psychopath, on the Internet from normal people and from other psychopaths as I have observed them. In this article I will describe the reactions from sociopathic people.

Sociopaths will often be slightly less forward coming at first than both neurotypical (normal) people and psychopaths, but after a while they often mistake me for being one of them. This is understandable because our two minorities have a lot in common in terms of outward behavior, at least in the more superficial sense.

Many socipaths are both intelligent and cautious people, so they don't jump straight into befriending me or straight out challenging me. They will sometimes - with caution - show me with little signs here and there that they're open for a friendly exchange, and that can work really great for as long as I decide to stick with what I know is "okay" and am alert to the specific 'moral code' of the individual person. Sociopaths usually have strong moral codes, but they don't necessarily follow some code made by a group, many have their very personal code of honor and sense of 'right and wrong', and if they're intelligent there's great logic to the way they think.

It isn't until talk falls upon certain topics that have emotional or moral value to them that the profound differences between sociopathy and psychopathy becomes evident and they see I'm not "one of the guys". When they realize I'm not like them they'll usually resend me for not having moral standards, for having no "pride", no "line beyond which one should never go", it depends on where their individual lines lie, but some topics tend to be persistent like f.x. 'Raping and/or molesting children is NOT okay!'.

Some may still retain a certain respect or "goodwill" and will debate with me, whereas others may cut me completely off or even leave the forum when I'm present.

In the cases where I've told I'm a psychopath they may think I'm trying to make a prank, or they'll think I'm trying to pose as a 'tuff dude", but they'll generally conclude I'm like them. Few sociopaths have the curiosity or sense of "awe" or slight fear that neurotypicals and most other minorities have, and if they don't know about the clinical neuro-psychological differences between our two groups they'll not really see any particular difference - with the exception of the absence of moral codex that I will display with time.

There's another minor difference that I've noticed from time to time: Many sociopaths have their ability to create attachments to a few beings intact, an ability that includes animals. Thus I have often debated with sociopaths who have told me about their cat or their dog and said f.x. "I'd do anything for my dog!". If I happen to tell about one of my youthful follies with being not very nice to a few animals, that can turn an otherwise very tough, hardened criminal against me, and it doesn't matter if I afterwards tell them it only happened very, very few times.

Whether or not I befriend a sociopath, they'll usually take my being a psychopaths as something that doesn't give reason for any special excitement - or treatment.
Where other psychopaths usually do not comment at all, or sometimes decide to test me, the sociopaths are the ones who are most likely to just take me being a psychopath for what it is: Me being a psychopath and just another guy who happened to stop by.

26 comments:

Haven said...

Very interesting. A little surprising though. I don't see most socios as being open to friendship with other P/S types. Anyone really. And I thought the animal issue was more widespread through the anti-social spectrum. Though I do suppose it depends entirely on the individual in question. Nice post =)

TheNotablePath said...

It's interesting you should bring up the Animals thing.

I have an acquaintance who is an older gentleman, a veteran. He had some mental issues relating to the conflict he was in, probably some measure of guilt, or perhaps no one he could talk to it about, so I talked to him about it.

He would tell small little stories, and would usually preface them with things like, "you're not a big dog lover, are you?" or something along those lines before telling me something that I guess the average person would find disgusting or reprehensible.

Eventually I wore down his walls and he told me everything he did there, and over the months it took, I never acted like anything he said affected me negatively, and I would laugh along with him and his shenanigan stories, or seem unfazed about the various ways he murdered local children with his squad mates while making bets on how a certain method would work.

I think he really needed me. His other old friends were dead, dying, or weren't willing to talk about it like it was a bad nightmare, and I was the understanding ear where he got to confess his deepest sins, and not stand judgment for any of them.

And in some ways, I need someone like me, too. But finding someone willing to listen to you bear your worst, well, it's almost impossible. And I would agree with you, that telling other sociopaths is Not a good way to go about it, because they are very judgmental.

There are certain lines I don't want to cross, but if someone crosses the lines I wouldn't, it doesn't make them lesser in my eyes. It's the difference between having a hunger, and not having a hunger. If I don't hunger for sex with young children, then that is a line I don't cross. But if I did, why wouldn't I cross that line? I doubt there would be anything holding me back from doing it.

As far as sociopaths go and making friends with other sociopaths, I think it's impossible since I can't be a friend with anyone by the definition of what friendship is supposed to be. That doesn't mean I can't enjoy relating to them and sharing stories, because like the gentleman I spoke of above, that's about as good as it gets when you're on the bottom of the moral barrel. No one else can accept you for who you are.

Andreas said...

I am thoroughly intrigued! I simply must hear more about your ideas of what a sociopath is.

It partially describes me; I wonder how you would peg me. I strive to be myself and refuse to try and make myself more or less moral, in order to fit a certain model. My 'moral code' is instrumental and a direct expression of my goals.

I have about two lines that I personally would not cross: rape, and child molestation. Why? Because I'm just not that sexual, and they are pretty 'bad' (meaning that they are pretty harmful I can't really think of a reason to perform those actions). There is nothing that I would gain from these actions. There is no real or significant emotional response but I am cognitively aware of the impact that these deeds have on others.

Those are my personal view. I'm also very aware of how arbitrary they can be. I generally think of raping a woman or a child as bad. When it comes to men, I have precious little (okay pretty much 0 haha)'sympathy'. God forbid the guy be a jerk, because I'd laughingly provide a delubricant, maybe even sell the dvds! Hardly moral, and more of a reflection of social conditioning than anything else. Especially since it doesn't seem possible to 'sell me' on the idea of a woman or kid deserving to be raped. (although a lot of this has to do with me viewing no utility in the action.)(fraud, theft, torture, murder, all of these have practical applications.)

My negative view of these actions stems from my practical desire for an ideal world. I like kids (in the healthy way haha). Fucked up kids -> fucked up adults who in turn, fuck up the world. Be good to those whom will be good to you. (The Copper Rule lol) In truth, I like anyone who is good to me; pretty much without regard to how 'despicable' they are.
--------
I like to describe myself as cherishing people, rather than being attached to them. As long as good things are coming (my way) between us, I keep a high opinion of that person, and want the best for us. If it sours, there is no lingering 'attachment'. Harming someone I cherish is the same as harming myself, because it could ruin our relationship (the good things that our association brings me) I tend to be a symbiont, rather than a parasite, because in my pessimistic world view, you must be good to others, for them to be good to you. It is inaccurate but it is a lower cost and marginally lower gain model, which affords me no enemies, and thus I can remain in one spot for a decent amount of time. (but ooohhh how I wish I could drain people like juices from an orange, twisting out every sweet drop, and then composting the remainder! sigh haha) I want too much out of life to seriously risk someone that I cast away coming back to interfere with my goals. I'm a bit domesticated...

animals: remind me to tell you about my Spider anecdote.


----------
Notable:
An interesting question you pose. If I had the hunger?
I believe I would fall back on my goals. Too much to lose, so I would not act upon such a desire... I'm very happy that I have no such desires!

I want to further address your post but later. One quick thing is that I was having a conversation with a friend who turned out to have a mind much like my own (an amazing find!) Well he, once, nearly stunned me by taking the words right out of my mouth. He was describing his tendency and method of passively listening to (almost encouraging) people, in order to draw out their deepest secrets and feelings. It's something I'd never really consciously thought of but constantly do; it is exactly like how you listened to that older bloke. Making a person feel an intangible comfort, so that you can learn everything about them :)
It's nice to hear that echoed elsewhere.

Zhawq said...

Haven,
Loving animals is actually more common among sociopaths than among AsPD'ers. The reason for this is the AsPD'ers are so emotionally damaged they have problems with any kind of attachment. They have plenty of emotions, just not the ability to turn them into something constructive.
They will sometimes hurt animals in childhood, but it's a reactive angry action (even if they don't always recognize it as such).


Notable,
"There are certain lines I don't want to cross, but if someone crosses the lines I wouldn't, it doesn't make them lesser in my eyes."

This is one thing that makes you unique. I remember when we had our very first exchanges, I already knew you were not a psychopath in the sense that I am one, and I told you about the two times I raped women, knowing that would not likely be something you found interesting. It was a test, I guess, though I didn't plan it so. I rarely plan as such, it comes automatically. But that was when I realized you're different from sociopaths in general.

"And in some ways, I need someone like me, too. But finding someone willing to listen to you bear your worst, well, it's almost impossible."

Indeed it is. If you ever come across a psychopath who's not out to abuse you, stick with that person. They may be trying, and you may have to take some shit now and then. Also, it may be necessary to take the second position, but if the person is intelligent it shouldn't matter, for they'll be aware that it's not about really being stronger or weaker or superior and inferior, it's just that we can't really do it any other way.

What I'm trying to say is that in the situation you describe, as as I have come to know you (over the Internet), if you can that person in a psychopath, you'll most likely have found gold (in a manner of speaking. Ah hell, we ARE gold! lol)

"And I would agree with you, that telling other sociopaths is Not a good way to go about it, because they are very judgmental."

That's true, and it is because sociopaths are very, very selectively attached to a very, very specific sub-cultural group, family, or even single person. And this kind of emotional attachment demands a perfect fit, which is why they also represent such a problem to society in general, because to them society and common norms are less than agreeable, they're nothing or less than nothing, they're there to be used and often even to be victimized.

Zhawq said...

Andreas
"I have about two lines that I personally would not cross: rape, and child molestation. Why? Because I'm just not that sexual, and they are pretty 'bad' (meaning that they are pretty harmful I can't really think of a reason to perform those actions)."

Not having a reason to do something is not the same as not being willing to do it because of the moral and emotional values it carry.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you're wrong - or right, for that matter. I'm just pointing out that there's a difference between finding an action not worth the effort and decide in advance that you'll never perform it.

"There is no real or significant emotional response but I am cognitively aware of the impact that these deeds have on others."

I would challenge this statement, Andreas, and I don't think it's a bad thing if these words doesn't exactly describe you.

I'm fairly sure that you would have an emotional response if you were witnessing or participating in such an event. It's very different to stand right beside a screaming child with blood running between his legs, and an adult grunting and breathing heavily while he says things like "That's right, cry for me! You're sooo cute, yes you are!!".

If you're indifferent to this scene when you see it for your inner eye, then you're indifferent because you've decided that you will be so. It is not your natural reaction, Andreas.

You do have certain emotional functions intact, and it is your strength if you find out how to use it to your advantage.

It is my weakness that I do not have even this intact. My weakness because nothing keeps me from doing things that are harmful even to myself, because nothing good can come from it, not even in prison. I've met people who were in prison for something like this, and believe me, it's not an easy task to keep such a secret for a prolonged period among people who will use any means to find something they can use against you.

"ooohhh how I wish I could drain people like juices from an orange, twisting out every sweet drop, and then composting the remainder! sigh haha"

Lol. Great description! :D

What you describe in this passage tells me you'll be alright (but I already had that impression) ;).

It's a good notion not to harm people you have good use of. - Me, I don't even have that (or I didn't use to have that. I've learned). I've ruined relationships I was benefiting from countless times, merely because I was carried away by the moment and followed the impulse to hurt them. Ah, the folly! It's good to hear you won't have to go through this!... '^L^,

TheNotablePath said...

I sometimes wonder if the role I fill, and the role I seek (though almost never find) in other is actually a role that needs to be filled, or if it is simply creating a situation that is conductive to passive information gleaning through the guise of selfless camaraderie.

It's hard to tell the difference between BS and bona fide roles when it doesn't matter what the reality is, simply that you know you want to do it. It just... it just Is.

Zhawq said...

Notable,

I agree. It's not easy to tell even for oneself which is which.
I personally think it's basically selfish, but I also don't think that means it's bad or a bad motivation. For as long as there is awareness and attempts to deceive can be left alone, this is possible.

The problem is of course that it can be hard to tell if others have the same approach, even if they claim they do that is not what experience will tell us.

Still, in the end it probably depends most of all upon how confident we are in our own ability to deal with what may come. Seeking something like this is not likely to ever be problem-free, perhaps quite the contrary.

Personally I see my urge to do this as another aspect of my never ending quest for knowledge, to experience reality and find it's depths.

Most of my experience has it that neurotypicals don't do much better than our kind. They may experience aspects that we do not have access to, but they have other issues that I would (do) find it hard to tolerate, but there's no way of changing it (not easily, anyway).

What I think would be interesting is to create such a situation, relationship, with mutual delight, but I wonder if that's possible.
I hope to find a combination, where perhaps there is a mutual amount of delight, though not necessarily from the same aspects.

Andreas said...

"Not having a reason to do something is not the same as not being willing to do it because of the moral and emotional values it carry.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you're wrong - or right, for that matter. I'm just pointing out that there's a difference between finding an action not worth the effort and decide in advance that you'll never perform it."


You are so terribly clever to catch onto that distinction! I'm not entirely sure of how my inhibitions are structured. Like I mentioned before, I was very much taken by surprise to see that P/S described me very well. My outlook and actions differ greatly from the average person who thinks of themself as a P/S. The other half of this strange coin is that many things that I have done and said, mainly in childhood, fit very nicely with P/S behaviour. My 'morality' is inline with my outlook and social position. I haven't committed any major offenses, and I have pretty much not committed any minor ones either. I abhor negative consequences, and my goals mean everything to me. Even minor discretions could become potential setbacks. Jumping, again, to that positive side of my coin:

(the section below will help fill in the picture)
Few things bother me, or even upset me. My goals mean everything to me but not in just the shrewd manner of a selfish person. My goals are often magnanimous, and involve the happiness of others. Not because that facilitates my goals but because it is actually one of my goals. Being what I am, I will rationally attempt to achieve my goals, which can make me icily ruthless in achieving the happiness of others. (yeah the recipients are often quite bewildered, and sometimes wary of such contradictory aid haha).
The point of this is that emotions are still not a component in this. I am unhappy when my goals are frustrated, and I am pleased by fruition. What I learned is that my way of thinking, and my feelings are completely insufficient for dealing with people. It is so basic an understanding that the thought almost never reaches consciousness.
That is the source of my success and the reason that I have not had to resort to as many negative deeds as many of my kin.

I am one of the most thoughtful people anyone will ever meet. I have always used my ability to read others to understand their points of view, and their desires to navigate my own actions. I almost never stop to think about how I feel. Only when many instances of failure, in interacting with a specific person, occur will I question my learned behaviour. I act most like anyone else, and casually am kind. It's like swimming with a current; you do not realize that you are going any faster, until you see swimmers outside of the current you are riding.

Fortunately, by not being very emotional, I suppose, I do not feel as if I am living a lie. If I am getting what I want in life, I am quite happy. BUT I do, and have always longed to find others like myself. So I am no zombie :)

I digress: I am aware that I will not perform those actions because 1 the impact that they have on others but mostly 2 due to the fact that I have no need, desire, or urge to do so. I think the latter is the truest statement but it is not truly an inhibition. The former is my actual inhibition.

I always thought of myself as highly empathic, until I learned the difference between understanding and feeling another's emotions.

Andreas said...

"There is no real or significant emotional response but I am cognitively aware of the impact that these deeds have on others."
I would challenge this statement, Andreas, and I don't think it's a bad thing if these words doesn't exactly describe you.
I'm fairly sure that you would have an emotional response if you were witnessing or participating in such an event. It's very different to stand right beside a screaming child with blood running between his legs, and an adult grunting and breathing heavily while he says things like "That's right, cry for me! You're sooo cute, yes you are!!".
If you're indifferent to this scene when you see it for your inner eye, then you're indifferent because you've decided that you will be so. It is not your natural reaction, Andreas.
You do have certain emotional functions intact, and it is your strength if you find out how to use it to your advantage.


My emotions are so tied up with my ideal/goals, that I wonder how strong they really are. I do believe there are some grounds for your challenge! But it may be less than we both expect...

To come full circle. Awareness of the feelings of others is often what I use to guide my behaviour, so consciously knowing that my emotions are insufficient to cause me to act will better prepare me for actions in the future. I dislike acting against my feelings but I often will if it is for the good of those that I am concerned for (fortunately that includes a great many people.)

Andreas said...

(The Below I was referring to:)
This is what I find odd or 'worrisome'. While I have not witnessed such an extreme event (and I certainly wouldn't participate, for the above reasons) I have seen something mild and related. Basically, the morning after a party, a friend of my relative was trying to "cop a feel" on her, while she was sleeping. Nothing too bad, and clothing and a blanket was between her and his hand, and he is both timid and pathetic but it was still wrong of him; everyone knew she didn't like him in any romantic/sexual way.

My assessment (thoughts):
I was morally disgusted by his behaviour.
I thought, I should beat the crap out of him.
- People would like the fact that I beat him up.
- He is smaller than me and weak, so I would suffer no damage.
Kill him instead? Killing him is not likely in the question, since his actions don't justify such a 'flagrant' reaction. Although, no one would really miss him. It's also a violent neighborhood and he's been mugged before. Still, not a good idea.
The idea I liked best was having one of the other people beat him up but they had left already. (For whatever ever reason, I have a strong aversion to physically exerting myself when it comes to harming others.)

All the while, I noticed that something was wrong. I was aware of the fact that I was disgusted by his behaviour, and my moral convictions were offended, yet something was missing. I realized that I was waiting for anger, rage, *disgust, or some kind of emotion to guide me through my decision, to fuel my actions. I felt nothing. It was awkward because I knew I was like everyone else, in regards to this situation, yet I felt no urge to do anything.
(*disgust and disdain are essentially the same to me, save for sanitation.)

At this thought, I became worried (actual worry) that by not acting, I would somehow suffer negative consequences, for either seeming callous, or even potentially being accused of being a coward, which would put me on the outs with her group.

I was surprised and bothered by the fact that this differed so greatly from my ideals, and general concept of myself. I, expecting to be like everyone else, was waiting for my feelings to guide me to act, and I learned that that would not occur.

I kind of regret not following my convictions and "being the hero" but fortunately, remorse just isn't part of my make up :P (I know that's bad but, what can I say. I'm being honest)

To finish the story. I did put a stop to his paltry attempts to "cop a feel". I gave him a little scare but it was really bullocks. Hmm, I could hold that against him, he should be prone to guilt…
Sure I could still goad him into killing himself by doing some risky behaviour but it would be due to the fact that his behaviour offends my ideals, and not due to any lingering feelings. This isn't a confession I just think it really illustrates a point.

About the child (above):
This is why I wonder how I would react. I would hope that I would be outraged enough to do something. Cognitively, I would be. Emotionally, I simply cannot say. I could easily kill that adult, and I would likely be rewarded for such. (Note: No, I wouldn't do it for the reward lol. I also have no urges, fascination, or desire to kill people. I am also telling the truth. To me, it is just a practical way to permanently end a bad situation. You have to admit, a bleeding child is a bad situation.) Despite my emotions, I do believe in justice.

Anonymous said...

"All the while, I noticed that something was wrong. I was aware of the fact that I was disgusted by his behaviour, and my moral convictions were offended, yet something was missing. I realized that I was waiting for anger, rage, *disgust, or some kind of emotion to guide me through my decision, to fuel my actions. I felt nothing. It was awkward because I knew I was like everyone else, in regards to this situation, yet I felt no urge to do anything.
(*disgust and disdain are essentially the same to me, save for sanitation.)

At this thought, I became worried (actual worry) that by not acting, I would somehow suffer negative consequences, for either seeming callous, or even potentially being accused of being a coward, which would put me on the outs with her group.

I was surprised and bothered by the fact that this differed so greatly from my ideals, and general concept of myself. I, expecting to be like everyone else, was waiting for my feelings to guide me to act, and I learned that that would not occur.

I kind of regret not following my convictions and "being the hero" but fortunately, remorse just isn't part of my make up :P (I know that's bad but, what can I say. I'm being honest)"

Huh. I can relate. And it also makes me laugh a little.

Do you watch "Curb your Enthusiasm"?

Anonymous said...

Zhawq,
Referencing your statement(s):

"Most of my experience has it that neurotypicals don't do much better than our kind. They may experience aspects that we do not have access to, but they have other issues that I would (do) find it hard to tolerate, but there's no way of changing it (not easily, anyway).

What I think would be interesting is to create such a situation, relationship, with mutual delight, but I wonder if that's possible.
I hope to find a combination, where perhaps there is a mutual amount of delight, though not necessarily from the same aspects."


Oh, it IS possible to attain it.
The biggest problem I see, in my experience, is the boredom factor for your kind. Frankly, as folks age, we just don't have the stamina we possess in the younger years. So while your kind NEED that contant stimulation and new and exciting in your lives, our kind (I think) get to a point of "Enough already! Exhausted here!". That's about the same time your kind see no useful purpose in us as the intervals of 'down time, i.e. boredom, are too much to bear.

. . . . exit . . . . . .

- and I think you can relate to that? And again, I think it comes down to that nasty predicament of respect. How can your kind fathom respecting our kind long enough to exist for any length of time in mutual bliss when hey, we get bored of the excitement after awhile and for the love of God - wanna RELAX already!

lmao
~Ma'am

Andreas said...

Ma'am,
You have touched such a nerve! :)
"So while your kind NEED that contant stimulation and new and exciting in your lives, our kind (I think) get to a point of "Enough already! Exhausted here!". That's about the same time your kind see no useful purpose in us as the intervals of 'down time, i.e. boredom, are too much to bear.
. . . . exit . . . . . ."



The lack of fulfillment is my greatest grievance with people. That fatigue feels the same as open rejection; a rebuke. If it were only infrequently the case, it could be tolerated but it is constant. It is as if my happiness has no meaning to anyone, other than myself.


I asked that former friend. "Why would you stay with someone who makes you unhappy? What do you gain?"
He asked "Why does something have to be gained?"
I explained: The feelings you have for that person are something you 'gain', they are just so basic and fundamental that you do not consider them to be something gained. Those feelings are not universal… That is a reason why people can so easily stay in abusive relationships. "Imagine being expected to stay with someone who makes you unhappy, AND you feel nothing for them."

I imagine being with someone who truly made me happy, rather than me seeking a method to gain happiness. In that case, I think I could become truly attached to someone, rather than simply being concerned about their wellbeing. I try and make the best of my interactions, rather than dwelling on that fact.

Anonymous said...

^Andreas,

From my own experience with a s/p, there simply is no concept of being with anyone (or doing anything) that was not for the purpose of seeking his own goal (happiness) - short or long term - whichever the relationship or event would take to attain the goal. His most frequent comment was "what about ME?" or some spin off of the same idea. Another's well being NEVER factored in. Hard to really explain it, but (to me) it felt like he was always 'trying' to make a go of it, even doing the proverbial 'right things' here and there. As he aged, the intervals he could maintain got a little longer (year or two here and there), but always, he ultimately broke: was as if he just couldn't STAND it anymore - trying to be in a monogomous setting. Being a parent was probably the worst torture he's had to bear in his life (and mind you, he was nothing more than just 'there' with no substance).

I think you said it perfectly when you said you "I try and make the best of it". Deep down, I always knew that's what he was doing too throughout the cycles of a relationship. I knew he never felt about me the way I did him. I guess in retrospect, amidst his many 'others', I was simply the 'best bet'.

Sad thing was I did truly love and care for him, despite all his immaturities and negatives. I protected him and in fact, he did grow in many ways. Even today, tho I have finally come to terms with who and what he was/is and am finally truly happy without him in our lives, I still have something I feel for him. Again, hard to explain: I feel no love. I feel no hate. My heart would like to pity him, but I know that would displease him and I respect that. I am no longer sad for me and our children, but I am still sad for him. I am not mad at all that he didn't recognize our love. No, I am SAD that he couldn't. If that makes sense?

I understand that it must be a difficult thing to imagine being with someone (or attached) and able to enjoy mutual benefits of happiness/well-being. In order to do that though, I believe one has to surrender their fears that it won't or can't work. Maybe its a silly saying, but, for folks like myself, it is a truth:

"it is in giving that we recieve"

But, what do I know?

How about you? From your last paragraph, do you even know what it is you imagine would make you happy in being with someone?

Can I point out words you used?

- "seeking" (methods to gain happiness)
- "concerning" (about their welfare)

. . . is not really 'being' with someone. You see, being with someone implies contentment . . . just being with that someone.

Which brings me back to the point about needing to relax ;)

Tis good not to dwell on anything and so am happy to hear you don't. Don't worry. Be happy. There's an ass for every seat, or so they say, heh?

In the meantime, all I can say is (I believe) its best not to get too absorbed in these labels or the s/p phenomena. We're all different on levels. And we certainly need not be 'attached' to enjoy living amongst and with our differences.

Thx for your input.
Sorry if I go on a bit :(
~Ma'am

Andreas said...

It is good to see that you have moved on from that relationship, in a healthy manner. You are not labeling him as a monster, so that shows that a lot of wounds have closed.

Another's well being is a goal of mine. I can and do become tired of it, sometimes because excessive patronizing becomes exhausting. As a parent, I am sure you remember the difference between smiling because your child made you smile, and smiling because something is important to your child. Don't get me wrong, I like kids, and I see that as 'part of the territory'. With adults, it's not as cute.

"How about you? From your last paragraph, do you even know what it is you imagine would make you happy in being with someone?"
I have no idea. I wouldn't stop looking though, even if I'm not sure it exists.

Clever! Seeking, Concerning
Just being with someone. That term makes my skin crawl, haha. I find the concept very difficult to personally understand. Enjoyment, for myself, usually, involves doing something. Even just sitting with the one you love, for me, would be imagined in some special place, or even just a park. I can even think of just sitting on the couch, together but that would be the 'event'; assuming just hanging out on the couch isn't something we normally do.
Just being around someone boils down to "being glad to see that they are alive and well', rather than actually being something to look forward to. I hate holidays because of that. People are so happy just being together. I could nearly kill myself, due to the boredom. Hosting a holiday dinner that could be fun; the kitchen and I are good ol mates!


Back to children: I also like the idea of teaching, caring for, and interacting with them.

It's funny, thinking of just being happy in the presence someone feels like half of a thought. I'm happy with you… and we are doing "X,Y, or Z".

I do know that the more possibilities that I see between us, the more I feel that I care for that person. I would describe that as really caring, at least in my own way. There is a major difference between enjoying someone's company, and picking a person, simply because they will accompany me.

amidst his many 'others', I was simply the 'best bet'.
It sounds very cynical for an NT but to an S/P is very possible that you did mean something significant.
He knew what he was doing, and he knew it would hurt you but (not in his defense, just analysis) he was looking to be fulfilled.
It isn't fair to either of you. More unfair to you, because you were playing by the rules. Yet also more unfair to him because the rules are not designed to please him. NO… I'm not justifying cheating… it is more that an ideal life in general is not ideal for us.
I think it is more of a tragic thing. Hopefully that means I'm not doomed to be unhappy in relationships, haha. Well that's a gloomy thought :P
----
(I love talkative people. Kindred spirits or sheer vanity? :P)

Andreas said...

* "With adults, it's not as cute." I meant to add "haha".
Because that was more of a joke. Otherwise, it sounds bitter. :P

Anonymous said...

“It is good to see that you have moved on from that relationship, in a healthy manner. You are not labeling him as a monster, so that shows that a lot of wounds have closed. “
- yeah, well, please don’t think that to mean I didn’t let those wounds get the best of me first. I had a pretty shitty 6-8 months awhile back learning how to close them. Strangely, that consisted of healing MYSELF. You know, the proverbial shit from my youth that did predispose me to the relationship w/him. Never much believed that psychological babble prior. I was too busy being busy in life. Suspect its the same for him. But, he’s always been quite immature and selfish in his thinking. He has never once bought into it. In fact, he’s not buying his dx either. Thinks its just hilarious. Whatever. No longer care to try to get through to him. For decades, he has called it, the ‘wall’: what he describes as the reason he doesn’t communicate well or (quote) think like everyone else”. Always claimed he tried, but just didn’t understand people.

“Another's well being is a goal of mine. I can and do become tired of it, sometimes because excessive patronizing becomes exhausting.”
- I don’t know how you are, but I believe he probably has similar beliefs. The thing was, his cut-off for “kid” and “adult”. He too was fine with baby kids (in front of others only, I suspect. For my youngest seems to have many possible RAD issues – dad was the primary care-giver the first year of his life, while I was slaving at work. NOW I hear stories of his leaving the babies alone for hours in cribs while he was of doing ???). However, when he came back around again, they were 6&7. He expected them to think, act and behave as adults.

“As a parent, I am sure you remember the difference between smiling because your child made you smile, and smiling because something is important to your child. Don't get me wrong, I like kids, and I see that as 'part of the territory'. With adults, it's not as cute.
-Lmao. Exactly. But here’s something you may not have considered: HE was the grossly immature one. Therefore, to ME it wasn’t as tolerable always having to put on the ‘show’ in having to keep him feeling validated all the time. Rather exhausting frankly. Dealing with him on a daily basis, one felt they had to digress mentally in order to keep him ‘on board”, lol. Even our son told him, when the boy was 12 and he, 46: “I could probably do a better job at knowing how to parent than you can and I’m just a kid.” His reaction? “you know son, you are probably right. But remember, I was out of the home by the time I was 13, and wasn’t really home for any lengths of time prior to that for a couple years before I was gone. So, I never learned how to be a dad”. Pissed me off how he always turned situations around to bring pity to himself. Gotta love the boy though. He rebutted with “No dad. You don’t know how to parent because its not something you want to do. Period”. (I was clapping mentally at the time – but still tried to mediate the interaction – to no avail)

"How about you? From your last paragraph, do you even know what it is you imagine would make you happy in being with someone?"
I have no idea. I wouldn't stop looking though, even if I'm not sure it exists.
- I hope my comment here doesn’t jeopardize our cyber-‘? friendship’, but here goes anyway:
It does exist for some folk. Unfortunately, I don’t think it could with you, Zhawq, if you are anything at all like my ex. I believe you have many similarities. Seems via the web, more than most. I believe you’d try. You’d even hope & see something promising. It’s the distrust thing – that NEED to NOT allow your guard down – to EVER be weak intentionally. Did you read that book I mentioned? No, I do not buy into all its premises. However, I do believe that the core of the problem with him was his narc tendency towards the me, myself and I.
continued . . .

Anonymous said...

- He simply would not (and I don’t see it as could not – I see it as would not) allow himself to delve into what it did for him when he was kind as opposed to selfish. It was as if he were ADHD (which I do think he was, though had controlled it better w/age) and just couldn’t sit still or THINK any period of time about it. He’d obsess over money making schemes, but never invested himself in unselfish thoughts of others for any length of time. I KNOW he “felt’ (if that’s the word we’ll use here lightly) good when he did a nice thing. Especially when it brought him recognition, lol. But, as he got older with my help, I actually think he did get something out of it. I dunno. Maybe it scared him? He wasn’t all that thrilled with the getting older aspect of life and I think he may have pushed away even his own opportunities to foster genuine feelings trying to break through because of the fear he was ‘getting old’. Who’ll ever really know? Unfortunately, he has NO communication skills at all, as you do.

“Clever! Seeking, Concerning”
-I try to be :)

“Just being with someone. That term makes my skin crawl, haha.”
- Pretty sure his too. He was always a loner in a sense, even when he had a large ‘following’.

“I find the concept very difficult to personally understand. Enjoyment, for myself, usually, involves doing something. Even just sitting with the one you love, for me, would be imagined in some special place, or even just a park. I can even think of just sitting on the couch, together but that would be the 'event'; assuming just hanging out on the couch isn't something we normally do.
Just being around someone boils down to "being glad to see that they are alive and well', rather than actually being something to look forward to.
-Well, there’s a difference btwn you and he. Whether I or anybody he supposedly cared for were alive an well am pretty sure never factored in to him. Though, I can’t lie. He was pretty good about running around for me when I was ill. He wasn’t one to sit and spend time with me if I was sick, but he’d make sure I had what I needed.
-Another reason it would likely be difficult to find that union you speak of. See, the ‘other half’ senses when someone doesn’t look forward to just ‘being’ with them. We (speaking as one of the ‘others’) want to be looked forward to. That sir, is the life of the relationship. Unfortunately, some of us don’t learn early enough that we deserve such reciprocity and without it, will never be fulfilled by the union. Once we do, though, it is if our ‘sensors’ actually come alive!

“I hate holidays because of that. People are so happy just being together. I could nearly kill myself, due to the boredom.”
-lol. Don’t EVEN get me started about the holidays! And he wouldn’t be caught dead hosting any parties, either.

“Back to children: I also like the idea of teaching, caring for, and interacting with them. “
- I find this statement interesting and have to wonder about its intent ;) He didn’t past infancy. After that, it was obvious (to the children as well and most importantly) he couldn’t be bothered with kids – of any age.

Anonymous said...

“It's funny, thinking of just being happy in the presence someone feels like half of a thought. I'm happy with you… and we are doing "X,Y, or Z".

I do know that the more possibilities that I see between us, the more I feel that I care for that person. I would describe that as really caring, at least in my own way. There is a major difference between enjoying someone's company, and picking a person, simply because they will accompany me.

amidst his many 'others', I was simply the 'best bet'.
“It sounds very cynical for an NT but to an S/P is very possible that you did mean something significant.
He knew what he was doing, and he knew it would hurt you but (not in his defense, just analysis) he was looking to be fulfilled.
It isn't fair to either of you. More unfair to you, because you were playing by the rules. Yet also more unfair to him because the rules are not designed to please him. "
- Thank you Zhawq. That was kind and I appreciate your explanation. (This must be where you are being a ‘good p”, wink). Yes, I have come to understand such, in part from my 30 yrs of experience with him and in part from your website. I do believe that in some way, I was likely the most significant person in his life. I believe sincerely that when he told me this, it was one of his rare truths. I know it because of how he treated me in the months before his arrest, when he had no idea: coming over to fix pool pumps, replacing kitchen faucets, picking me up at the airport time n time again. This one I came to find very odd: I had moved out with our kids and bought a nice home 8 months prior to his arrest. That was when he did all the nice, helpful things for me. (Course I had to pay him sometimes, depending on his mood?). But, in the last months prior to arrest, he would call me late at night for what I thought were stupid reasons. I had helped him startup his two businesses yrs prior and did all his big estimates and he’d learned to trust my instincts on the profitability of jobs. Sometimes, he’d call about that, but mostly, just other silly things that he could’ve just asked me the next day or next time he’d see me. He would still come over to take the boys to their guitar & drum lessons couple times/week and you’d think normal folk separated would do their communicating then? I wondered if he were missing me as I was surely missing him. I mean when you live with someone (the last stint) several years, you just kinda get used to having them there, you know? Wasn’t about sex anymore (I had learned to do without for awhile even when living with him). And always he called late at night. Then, I learned of his 24 year old gf post arrest. He’d being hosting her 3 months. She apparently was a cocktail waitress and went to work at 9pm. She knew nothing of I and I, her. Sound familiar, lol? So I had to wonder, why was he calling me when she left for work when C’mon, she was 24 yrs old (20 yrs my junior and 24 his), skanky (sorry, its true) and enamored with him. We used to get into hours long philosophical talks. Mind you, he only lived 6 minutes away, ha-ha! But never came over the house at night once I moved out. He wanted me/us to go . . . . I was devastated, but I’ve always been a bit of a ‘when the going gets tough” kinda gal. He was cruel, I told him in his telling me “Look, its not you. It never was. You really are wonderful. The best. Its me. Its always been me”. Pause. He WAS trying to tell me something I just didn’t see or want to see. I never knew about all this s/p shit, and neither does he, so really, I couldn’t begin to understand something I knew nothing about. Now, so many of his sayings make perfect sense to me. Such as “you listen to me, but you don’t hear” and my all time favorite of his “Watch out for what you wish for, you just might get it”.
. . still more . . .

Anonymous said...

- I believe that he’d been trying to tell me something all along, since day one - that which he had no scientific or psychological knowledge of – about himself.

-Even recently, I’ve been told some of the comments about me he has made to others and it was fucking with me (was). I know now (and I DO believe) that he was just going along for the ride and thinking it would all come together for him and he would finally attain that which I think he did want – to be content – even happy – in ‘normal’ sociological settings. But he couldn’t. This last time, God knows he tried his best (which really, for us, was never what one would call good or anything). But in the end, he gave into his old ways and demons and (with the extra help of needing testosterone shots due to normal male aging) became 16 all over again. Thus was the cycle of him – his life. Never content to be stable and economically doing well in life. There was/is always more, more, more he imagined.


“NO… I'm not justifying cheating… it is more that an ideal life in general is not ideal for us.”
-Yup. I always said maybe it would have worked out for us long term (longer than the 30 off and on) if only I were okay with him having other women? I’d learned to let him go off and do his own thing without any jealousy or fears long long ago. Just not drugs or other women would I tolerate. Trust me, I had ways to find things out too (I’ll leave that one alone). Except for the occasional cliff jump off the wagon (hehe), he was ok. Though, I know I can never be 100% sure and what I don’t know won’t hurt me.


“I think it is more of a tragic thing. Hopefully that means I'm not doomed to be unhappy in relationships, haha.
- I agree whole-heartedly Zhawq. It is a tragedy for all of us. No, I don’t think you will be doomed. You are far too interesting ;) But let’s be honest here, if we can and realize the scope of many of your writings and the other ‘drives’ you have. My ex got all that out of his system when he was a young man. I think? He didn’t move around much, so maybe that’s just because people around here kinda know better than to screw with him, you know? Even decades of passed time never seemed to quite erase his reputation for some of his brutal interactions in his younger days. That always pissed him off to no end. He felt although he was doing well (better than ever expected considering where he had been – and I will take some credit for that, thank you), that he could do better if not for that nasty past of his. It sounds like you understand this, from your writings, no? Seriously tho, I didn’t feel I had to worry about loss of life (mine or others) with him. Don’t get me wrong, always felt he’d kill if he had to, so I guess he just made sure he didn’t have to. Sometimes, that meant he had to take a hit to the home team. If the man had any fear, it was ever seeing the inside of a cell again and I guess he knew he’d get over the hit quicker than a murder sentence. So maybe that allowed him to fly under the radar better and longer? Don’t know why he thought what he was doing would render him less a chance to do the hard time he’s going to do now. Who’da thunk? In the end, he was as clumsy mentally as he was physically. He WAS a bit of a clutz, lol.


“Well that's a gloomy thought :P”
- ah yes, another point: gloomy. His middle name. Drove me batshit. Then again, he always said my disposition drove him the same. He said that’s why opposites attract, you know, the ‘ole ‘soulmate’ term? *giggle* . . . . . what an ass I was . . . . *giggle again*


“(I love talkative people. Kindred spirits or sheer vanity? :P)”
-probably a little of both – on both ends :P back at ya

. . one more . .

Anonymous said...

Zhawq,
Thanks for sharing and receiving. What you say is interesting and helps me better understand my past as well as hey, you know how it goes: having a way to get it out too. Sorry if I bore. Thinking maybe you benefit in seeing how an s/p and an NT (well, I don’t really know if I would call me that either – what the hell is typical? I think an empath suits me better) relationship exists where both got ahead economically and without fear of the law? Not sure. I can say this: if he didn’t go off the deep end again, and decide to once again go illegit, we could have had a VERY nice life. Then again, now I know that I wasn’t really all that happy all along. So maybe not. Who knows? Let’s hope that we all can figure something out of this thing we call life.

Have a good day, Zhawq. Think happy thoughts ;0
~Ma'am

Anonymous said...

OMG, Andreas, I am sorry :(
I responded/ addressed to Zhawq and not Andreas! Mea culpa. Honestly not intentional.
~Ma'am

Andreas said...

Ma'am,
No Problem at all. Now, had I been a narcissist... :P
What you had to say was quite interesting. Much to think over.

--------

Anon July 21 2011 10:46,
I have not seen Curb Your Enthusiasm, but I think I will take a look. What about the show are you referring to?
-----
Notable,
I sometimes wonder if the role I fill, and the role I seek (though almost never find) in other is actually a role that needs to be filled, or if it is simply creating a situation that is conductive to passive information gleaning through the guise of selfless camaraderie.

I never stopped to think about that behaviour but now that you mention it, I, as well, look for others; Yet it maybe for a different reason? I am drawn to strange people, perhaps I'm searching for a familiar persona. Passing no judgment affords me a full view of another person's mind. I've never really sought a listening ear (sounds a bit dubious, as I respond on a blog ;P) but I look for my kindred. Perchance those two impulses are related? Regardless, it is enjoyable.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

thanks zhawq, like reading my autobiography
- the pondering about having mutually beneficial relationships - think it is possible - just have to remember not to shit in our own nest and get our need elsewhere. I have friends I only visit when I'm feeling belligerent and some when I'm feeling sociable, just need to mix and match and make up for your blights from time to time - if you appear to be a slave to your worst qualities but genuinely try and make up for it - people feel they should generally give you another chance

Anonymous said...

So what would you make of me mate ?

I have no morals, in fact they jump out like dogs balls. So like you here.
My emotional range is different, though I reckon it is just without the pro social emotions and a pathological egocentricity. Psychologists agree if I am a psychopath my feelings are on the high side.
I've been this shade of different since I can remember, but, of late there is no doubt at least some of my feelings are going through a transition, seems to be sociopathic in nature.
I have known many other people across the anti social spectrum and they all think I'm like them but a little different also.
Born antisocial with a sociopathic twist perhaps. Had a life experience at about 15 months old to get things going too.
Any thoughts ?