Saturday, April 2, 2011

Psychopaths and Gender.


I've been looking for more clues that confirms the notion I support: That since Emotion is something you feel via Physical Sensations, and since Psychopaths seem to lack specifically in areas of Emotion that Neurologically are closely linked to parts of the limbic system that have to do with Empathy, Fear, etc., but also with Sexuality (and to a large degree with gender - which may in fact be the reason there're three times more Male than Female psychopaths), it may also be a prevalent trait with us that we aren't quite as strictly Defined in our Sexuality as are normal people.


This picture was listed as Androgynous - but whatever the Gender of this person, it's Red Hot Sexy!


It's been harder than expected to find anything on the gender and sex issue than I had anticipated, and the little I found - articles, primarily, and excerpts - I had to pay hard cash to read.
When reading the book 'Snakes in Suits' by Paul Babiak and Robert D. Hare, I came across the following citation in a chapter about how we Psychopaths manipulate people, that describes very well a much used tactic among Psychopaths - be they Female or Male


Cathy learned when she was very young that sexuality with all its attendant yearnings, jealousies and taboos, is the most disturbing impulse that humans have. And in that day it was even more disturbing than it is now, because the subject was unmentionable and unmentioned.
Everybody concealed that little hell in himself, while publicly pretending it didn't exist--and when he was caught up in it he was completely helpless. Cathy learned that by manipulation and use of this one part of people she could gain and keep power over nearly everyone. It was at once a weapon and a threat. It was irresistible. And since the blind helplessness seems never to have fallen on Cathy, it is probable that she had very little of the impulse herself and indeed felt a contempt for those who did. And when you think of it in one way, she was right.

John Steinbeck, East of Eden.


Most Psychopaths I have met or heard of - myself included - do what Steinbeck describes. We do things according to gender first of all, but we're also individuals and have preferences and character traits which may influence how each of us actualize the fundamental idea, but mostly it is all a variation over a Stereotypical theme. And that is most likely the reason why we come across as such explicit representatives of our gender.

.....

But that above passage which Babiak and Hare cites in 'Snakes in Suits' is pretty telling in my eyes.

Male psychopaths pretty much do exactly the same thing as we see John Steinbeck describing with the woman Cathy. Both gender tends to represent the gender they were born with because it is easier, and most people respond to that, rather than the sexuality of minorities.

On another note in this regard: I have noticed, that once we shed what has been called our 'Mask', the gender differences become less obvious. In fact, I know of more than one Psychopath who on the Internet present themselves as a gender they do not represent in so called 'Real Life'.

___

18 comments:

I love tn said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
TheNotablePath said...

I've never felt attached to a gender role before. I consider my personality and attraction fairly androgynous.

I actually wrote an article specifically on women who fall under the current umbrella of ASPD (including sociopaths and psychopaths, and they aren't in the DSM at the moment). You can find it here

Zhawq said...

tn,

We've all grown up with the notion that women are more 'emotional', whereas men are more 'logical' in our way of thinking.

But I think I've seen at least some signs that counters this belief, not only in our culture, but in many cultures - not least pre-Christian and non-patriarchal cultures.

In cultures that aren't patriarchs (and most haven't been; it's largely a Christian influence, Christianity being Female hating at it's very core) women are usually the ones who take care of economy and who plans and keep track of family and agricultural structures in the society. They also seem to be more adept at certain aspects of politics, wherefore outside of Christian (and Christianity brother-religions such as Islam) cultures women play a very important role in politics as supporters and stabilizers of their male front figures.

In fact, in other cultures it is the men who are 'emotional'. Men are the big lovers who pursue and seduce the one they fall in love with. Also, men are the ones who's stronger emotional baggage create in them the drive to fight, hunt, outdo opponents and adversaries, as well as conquer new land ... all for their loved ones!

For in those cultures it is always the drive to do well for one's offspring, one's beloved wife, and only next to that it is one's own Honor and Pride, etc. etc.


I know how alien such a description must sound, and it certainly did sound alien to me when I first encountered it.
In fact, I fought the idea so fiercely I almost wept with rage, it just could not be true!!... Haha

Thing is, in the most well balanced non Christian cultures there's no need for men to feel inferior either, for it is not a matter of who is better or stronger, etc.. It is a matter of who is strong in which way, because every strength is a benefit - and more than that, it is needed!

Our culture's decline comes from imbalance. Women have been subdued for centuries, well in fact for two millenia, and the effects this has caused have poisoned males and females alike.

Religious entities are a thing of the past, now we have rebellion in the form of us - the Psychopaths. I believe, that there is good reason for women's attraction to us. And the strong women don't become victims, they become free!


"As for sexuality I'm not sure I have any preferences at all."

Not sure, you say. I know what you mean, I have met strong women who said exactly this, and as I got to know them I came to an understanding about how that came to be.

Of course, the exception is with female Psychopaths. With psychopaths it's not easy to find any origin to how we are with this lacking preference of ours.


"Though of course, once you're in my sights I'll pretend you fit (almost) all my desires perfectly."

Hehe, yeah. But that is not exactly sexuality, is it? Do you feel aroused in these situations where you perform according to what you know the other will react to?, and do you achieve climax?

Zhawq said...

Notable:

"I've never felt attached to a gender role before. I consider my personality and attraction fairly androgynous."

That fits my impression of you. I like it as well.

I'll take a look at the article. THanks for the link.

I love tn said...

I meant emotional as in, emotionally in tune. More understanding, responsive and involved in emotions, their own and other peoples. Not emotional as opposed to logical.

I didn't really mean not sure, I meant I don't have any preferences. Well I'm a psychopath myself. I saw a documentary once based on an experiment they did where they found the biological response (of women) didn't vary whether they were watching heterosexual or homosexual pornography. They were equally aroused by both. (There weren't any detailed statistics so I don't know how valid it was) But it did make me wonder that perhaps sexuality is just psychological.

Haha. I am aroused (biologically speaking) by pretty much any sex, the details are not really important. I have to say though, I do enjoy performing according to what I know the other will react to in the sense that making them lose control is another way of having them completely at my mercy. Seeing a big, muscly, confident guy moan and writhe with no control over himself makes me laugh. A lot.
I haven't with another person, whether that's to do with their incompetence or me not being relaxed enough, I don't know.

ZKM said...

Honestly I think the assumption that female psychopaths are outnumbered by male psychopaths is questionable at best. We must acknowledge that the majority of 'legitimately' diagnosed psychopaths are incarcerated, and male inmates outnumber female inmates by over 700%. We must also note that because of the ways of most modern societies, women are not only less accepted as criminals but slightly harder to incarcerate as well.

Add on to that the inherent tendency toward women being diagnosed as Borderline, Narcissistic or some other variation of sociopathic traits, simply BECAUSE it is believed women are not psychopaths (catch-22, eh?) I simply cannot consider current data conclusive. Could it be accurate? Surely. But objectively speaking, many assumptions are brought into question.

Zhawq said...

tn:

"More understanding, responsive and involved in emotions, their own and other peoples. Not emotional as opposed to logical."

I understand. And I don't dispute that. However, understanding and being responsive is linked to intellect and logical thinking as much as to emotionality. In the end it's not always easy to tell where one begins and the other ends.


"I didn't really mean not sure, I meant I don't have any preferences."

I understand - and understood - that. :)


"Well I'm a psychopath myself."

What?! Come again, tn, where did you get this impression of yourself?


"I saw a documentary once based on an experiment they did where they found the biological response (of women) didn't vary whether they were watching heterosexual or homosexual pornography. They were equally aroused by both."

I've seen such a documentary on Youtube. Interesting too. I wish there was more of that nature on Youtube.


"But it did make me wonder that perhaps sexuality is just psychological."

Sexuality is obviously not just psychological. I can understand why you got the idea that maybe it is, but it's the old discussion about Nurture vs Nature. Neither is correct, it is always a combination of the two, and how much influence one has over the other varies from individual to individual and from culture to culture.


"Seeing a big, muscly, confident guy moan and writhe with no control over himself makes me laugh. A lot."

*s*

Yes, it can be quite a show to see people falling victims to their own inner workings, even if they like to think it's someone else's fault.

Then again, how much is their inner workings and how much is me manipulating same? - That's what I mean when I say things aren't either one or it's opposite, there're always both ends at work in some combination or other.


"I haven't with another person, whether that's to do with their incompetence or me not being relaxed enough, I don't know."

I believe I know what you're talking about here. It's a complex issue though, tn. And I'm not sure I can answer that in a post here, nor am I sure it would be a good idea.
It's the kind of thing that should be done under more private forms. - If you know someone already, who understand what you just said here, I'd advice you to talk with them. Everybody deserve to have some good time, physically as well as mentally, and this is actually something that can be achieved.

Zhawq said...

ZKM:

"Honestly I think the assumption that female psychopaths are outnumbered by male psychopaths is questionable at best."

Okay? What is your theory?


"We must acknowledge that the majority of 'legitimately' diagnosed psychopaths are incarcerated, and male inmates outnumber female inmates by over 700%."

But surely you can see that if we're to question the stronger tendency towards Psychopathy in males, then we might as well question the stronger tendency towards criminal activity in males as well.

So why aren't there more criminal females?


"We must also note that because of the ways of most modern societies, women are not only less accepted as criminals but slightly harder to incarcerate as well."

Less accepted as criminals? Do you mean less accepted among male criminals?

As for why it would be harder to incarcerate females than males, I don't understand what you mean, ZK. Please explain?


"Add on to that the inherent tendency toward women being diagnosed as Borderline, Narcissistic or some other variation of sociopathic traits"

It's true there is a tendency to over diagnose women with BD and BPD, but there also really is a stronger tendency towards BD and BPD in females than in males. The problem lies in the common human tendency to generalize too much and see what they expect to see.

But there's no tendency to over diagnose women as Sociopaths. And this is perhaps the one Psychopathy related group they'd be most often represented in of the lot.


"simply BECAUSE it is believed women are not psychopaths (catch-22, eh?) I simply cannot consider current data conclusive."

Nobody (that is, nobody who have real expertise) consider the current data final, though there is a few temporary conclusions to be made. And they actually fit.


"Could it be accurate? Surely. But objectively speaking, many assumptions are brought into question."

Indeed.

And one of the missing pieces lie in what I have decided to help provide: Not only words from "The Horse's Mouth", so to speak, but from a non incarcerated "horse" - or Psychopath - at that.

I love tn said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Zhawq said...

ZKM:

"Honestly I think the assumption that female psychopaths are outnumbered by male psychopaths is questionable at best."

Number may not be accurate, but it's a fair estimation. There really is a stronger tendency towards Psychopathy in males.


"We must acknowledge that the majority of 'legitimately' diagnosed psychopaths are incarcerated, and male inmates outnumber female inmates by over 700%."

Yes, criminal activity also tends towards being stronger represented in males than in females.


"We must also note that because of the ways of most modern societies, women are not only less accepted as criminals but slightly harder to incarcerate as well."

Do you mean females are less accepted by male criminals?

But even so, males can do crime without females, so if females are as actively criminally inclined as males, they can commit crime without males as well as the other way around.


"Add on to that the inherent tendency toward women being diagnosed as Borderline, Narcissistic or some other variation of sociopathic traits"

This is true. There really is a tendency towards over diagnosing women with these conditions. It's the same old story, generalization makes people see what they expect to see.

That said, there actually is a stronger tendency towards these conditions in females than in males. It's got to do with neuro-biological hormonal aspects and the way they impact our personality and character traits.

It's as much a myth that men and women have the same equation towards mental traits as it's a myth that all psychopaths are serial killers and psychotic.

As for the sociopathic traits... This is the one group associated with Antisocial conditions that is the most likely to have the highest number of female representation.


"simply BECAUSE it is believed women are not psychopaths (catch-22, eh?) I simply cannot consider current data conclusive."

No one believes current data are conclusive. - That is, no real expertise believes it. - Sure, there're a lot of half studied narcissistic self promoting writers who think data are conclusive, but they're only serving their own agenda, not any real scientific study.


"Could it be accurate? Surely. But objectively speaking, many assumptions are brought into question."

Indeed. That much is certain.

And this is where I have decided to help things a bit by providing some data in one of the most lacking areas: Psychopaths giving their side of the story.

And more so: I'm doing this OUTSIDE of jail. No one has coerced me into keeping this blog, and for someone like me that makes a hell of a difference. ;)

ZKM said...

My theory? Simply that the scales are a bit more even than one might think. I do not pretend to be knowledgeable of the absolute truth, I only bring certain fallacies to the floor because it seems common for people to assume that female psychopaths being dramatically outnumbered by males is a solid fact.

I consider the larger population of male criminals as being another byproduct of a patriarchal society. Although the majority of at least American incarcerations have to do with damage to property, either through theft or other such means, a good majority of crimes are instigated by gangs or other such groups who are decidedly female unfriendly.

My point seems vague, but the easiest way for me to put it is to think about the common misconception that Arab men, or even blacks, are only heterosexuals. It is well known that many are gay, but because overtly acting in that manner is universally frowned upon in their society, it almost appears as if that assessment is correct. In reality, the percentage of 'Out' individuals in those communities is lower out of self preservation, not necessarily actual preference. The effects of societal Mores are much more overt than one might think at first glance.

Zhawq said...

tn,

hey again. Caught me online, you did. :)


"Err, my diagnosis. Ha. Why, what did you think I was?"

Are you saying you are a diagnosed Psychopath?

tn, I'm not kidding when I say this: If you have been diagnosed as a psychopath, there is real potential here... and I mean real as in Green, honey! If someone really made this mistake, you and I should talk. It would be wrong, AND stupid, to not take advantage of it!...

But... maybe I misunderstood you here. ;)


"I meant that maybe the preference is to do with thoughts and how people feel rather that physiological response and stimulation."

Okay. But the two things are intertwined. Your thoughts are affected by your biology, hormones especially has a lot of impact upon everything we do.


"I'm not saying I don't have a good time physically! If it wasn't physically delightful I doubt I'd ever bother with it! It's not quite the same for women as it is for men. Haha!"

Oh, but that wasn't how I meant it. I know you're not that stupid, tn. And I can sense you would like being touched in the right way, of course. No worries, baby!... ;)

I love tn said...

Do you wanna go ahead and explain why you think that's wrong instead of being slightly patronising?

marvin said...

I wanna know why this douche, i love tn thinks it is/may be a psychopath. I wanna know in detail, from "the expert's" mouth. Explain it to me like I am a two year old. She/he sounds like a mixed up wacko with nothing better to do than hang in a socio setting for kicks. What exactly? Clearly it's oversexed so:

Histrionic with hypomania = psychopath?

MrBlake said...

Marvin,

man, I don't know 'I love tn' other than via Zhawq's blog... You're not gonna hear Zhawq himself diagnose anyone, and it prolly aint smart of me to do it either.

But here it is: Myself being a psychopath (yeah, diagnosed and all), I can spot my kinsmen easy, and you be purtty much right.

So da lovin' tn aint a psychopath, but she likes us.
Is that a problem? ;)

If you surf round a bit you'll see some purtty damn messed up people all claimin' to be Sociopathic Psychopath Antisocial Disordered with da highest possible score on the Online Bad Ass diagnosis (ya know, the one in people's heads).

It's all cool tho', they been after Zhawq too, and he's been diagnosed officially 3 times by forensic/clinical psychologists and psychiatrists (and once outside the prison system).

But hey, 21 yr old antisocial narcissistic kids know best, right? HA! :D

Zhawq said...

tn,

hey again. Caught me online, you did. :)


"Err, my diagnosis. Ha. Why, what did you think I was?"

Are you saying you are a diagnosed Psychopath?

tn, I'm not kidding when I say this: If you have been diagnosed as a psychopath, there is real potential here... and I mean real as in Green, honey! If someone really made this mistake, you and I should talk. It would be wrong, AND stupid, to not take advantage of it!...

But... maybe I misunderstood you here. ;)


"I meant that maybe the preference is to do with thoughts and how people feel rather that physiological response and stimulation."

Okay. But the two things are intertwined. Your thoughts are affected by your biology, hormones especially has a lot of impact upon everything we do.


"I'm not saying I don't have a good time physically! If it wasn't physically delightful I doubt I'd ever bother with it! It's not quite the same for women as it is for men. Haha!"

Oh, but that wasn't how I meant it. I know you're not that stupid, tn. And I can sense you would like being touched in the right way, of course. No worries, baby!... ;)

Zhawq said...

tn,

We've all grown up with the notion that women are more 'emotional', whereas men are more 'logical' in our way of thinking.

But I think I've seen at least some signs that counters this belief, not only in our culture, but in many cultures - not least pre-Christian and non-patriarchal cultures.

In cultures that aren't patriarchs (and most haven't been; it's largely a Christian influence, Christianity being Female hating at it's very core) women are usually the ones who take care of economy and who plans and keep track of family and agricultural structures in the society. They also seem to be more adept at certain aspects of politics, wherefore outside of Christian (and Christianity brother-religions such as Islam) cultures women play a very important role in politics as supporters and stabilizers of their male front figures.

In fact, in other cultures it is the men who are 'emotional'. Men are the big lovers who pursue and seduce the one they fall in love with. Also, men are the ones who's stronger emotional baggage create in them the drive to fight, hunt, outdo opponents and adversaries, as well as conquer new land ... all for their loved ones!

For in those cultures it is always the drive to do well for one's offspring, one's beloved wife, and only next to that it is one's own Honor and Pride, etc. etc.


I know how alien such a description must sound, and it certainly did sound alien to me when I first encountered it.
In fact, I fought the idea so fiercely I almost wept with rage, it just could not be true!!... Haha

Thing is, in the most well balanced non Christian cultures there's no need for men to feel inferior either, for it is not a matter of who is better or stronger, etc.. It is a matter of who is strong in which way, because every strength is a benefit - and more than that, it is needed!

Our culture's decline comes from imbalance. Women have been subdued for centuries, well in fact for two millenia, and the effects this has caused have poisoned males and females alike.

Religious entities are a thing of the past, now we have rebellion in the form of us - the Psychopaths. I believe, that there is good reason for women's attraction to us. And the strong women don't become victims, they become free!


"As for sexuality I'm not sure I have any preferences at all."

Not sure, you say. I know what you mean, I have met strong women who said exactly this, and as I got to know them I came to an understanding about how that came to be.

Of course, the exception is with female Psychopaths. With psychopaths it's not easy to find any origin to how we are with this lacking preference of ours.


"Though of course, once you're in my sights I'll pretend you fit (almost) all my desires perfectly."

Hehe, yeah. But that is not exactly sexuality, is it? Do you feel aroused in these situations where you perform according to what you know the other will react to?, and do you achieve climax?

Anonymous said...

The only things I have deducted about female psychopaths is,

the are much less likely to be a physical threat and therefore tend to use manipulation and poison ect as opposed to upfront aggression, this purely being based on practicalities

and b, In my experience they are less easy to have a quip quo pro relationship with, their snakier . Maybe because they feel physically inferior to a male psychopath. I tend to start of with non aggression, knowing I can always drop back to the lowest common denominator, I guess they don't way this up the same, they need to be psychologically nastier instead.