Thursday, March 3, 2011

When They Fear You...


Respect or Fear, which would you rather have other feel towards you? How do you define the difference between the two?


I think basically it's about liking or not liking. If you fear someone you're likely to not like them. If you respect someone, you're more likely to also like them.
But what about those that you love but also fear?

I myself have never had such an experience, I mean, I don't remember ever fearing someone that I also liked. But I've known quite a few who did - with me.
For some reason I seem to evoke that doubleness, or ambivalence, in some people.

I'll admit there's a certain deliciousness about having people both love and admire you but also fear you and therefore be even more alert to your wishes, to how you feel and to what mood you're in. They will tend to tip toe around you, and that in itself can be quite a nice sensation, I would be lying if I said I don't enjoy being in this position. Much of what I do and say around people is structured with the aim for this as the outcome being the my first aim, but the motive goers father than that of course.

It is quite amazing what you can make people do when they want to please you, and it's even more amazing what they'll do when their wish to please is mixed with fear of what will happen if they don't.

However, all this fear can backfire on you. Your enemies can use it against you, if they manage to make the person even more afraid of what will happen if they don't comply to THEIR wishes, or worse still, make them believe they'll never succeed in pleasing you and therefore might as well go right ahead and back stab you then and there, get it over with, and doing it under the protection of your enemies - cops, oppositional business folk, or whatever.

Then there's the individual who, for one reason or others, sees himself overlooked once too often, think he deserves something he didn't get because someone else did, and he decides you didn't deserve his loyalty after all. All that energy he put into being afraid of you, in trying to step up his performance, all for you so that he might reap what he sow in the form of receiving personal benevolent appreciative looks for you and perhaps an extra tip or free drink now and then.
They're often easily dealt with, but can at times turn out to be more of a pain in the ass than you bargained for. That's when you have to turn a more ugly mask up your bag of inventions for that purpose.

That can have it's fun side too, though. No doubt about that.

Finally I'm thinking of those times where people are so fear struck they get frozen and can't move, can perform a single, simple task you give them. That, for some reason, can get the most ugly sides up in me:

When they're afraid you and you never really meant them to be! All you wanted was some easy and swift compliance to get things done, and they just stand there, wide eyed and unable to think. It's like time has stopped or something, they sit there like in a wax cabinet, and often when you really need them to move swiftly and do what you've told them so that you may get things done and get out of there as soon as possible for everybody's sake, not only yours, but everybody's. And what do they do: They hang on, do nothing of what is needed, nothing of what you tell them to.

I read a description in the book 'Without Conscience' by Dr. Robert D. Hare about psychopathy, where he desribes how an inmate tells him about how he doesn't understand fear.
Hare asks him if he's ever experienced fear, and the guy complies something like this: "Sure, I've experienced fear. But not like I've seen when I do bank robberies, f.ex. There was this woman, at the register, and I asked her to open it and empty it's contents into a bag I gave her. She threw up all over the place! Can you believe it? I'd never do anything like that, I've never reacted like that. It's not like she was dying or anything, as long as she did was I told her to. So I don't get it""

Those are not the exact words he said (as Hare quote him in the book), but it was something to that end. And it's pretty much how I see it too. It's not that I don't understand fear, it's more the illogical, the irrational way that people let themselves get swallowed up by fear so as to let their emotions rule the way they react. It works against them, and it angers those of us who are less prone to that kind of fear, even more.

Some people like for others to feat them no matter where, when or why. That's now how it is with me. I like people to fear me in some situations, but to be relaxed in others. And it's when people fear in me in situations where I'd rather have them simply relax that it annoys me the most when they DO fear me.

21 comments:

TheNotablePath said...

Having people fear me is addicting. It's ridiculous. It's almost as if the Narc requires narcissistic supply, and I require fear supply. *chuckles*

But from a purely logical point of view (deprived of pleasure), let's put it this way.

You have 100 people below you. Only five are actual psychopaths (higher since it is dirty dealing). You got to the top where you are by being as good as you are, which in itself sews some level of fear. They know you aren't afraid to enforce when you have to, and you've done it before.

Now there's two branches.

Branch 1 - Fear: Without a constant state of alarm and fear, your underlings will devour you. Say you catch some sickness that puts you out of commission for a while, end up in prison, or get messed up and are in the hospital for a while. Suddenly those little minnows become more greedy, and the higher ups start to fantasize about how good it would be to be king. A dangerous situation that allows no weakness or your end, regardless if it is in your hands.

Branch 2 - Respect: Sure you might have killed some people to get to where you are, but you aren't blood-crazed and sadistic to your employees unless you need to be. Otherwise, you demand respect, and give it too, and don't treat them like kids whose opinion means nothing. You become the Matriarch/Patriarch, and they see you as a surrogate parent, a sage, and the best goddamn boss they've ever had. You'd have a much lower likelihood to be back-stabbed, but those five wild cards are always there, keeping you on your toes.

Personally, in all likelihood, I would probably end up falling somewhere in the middle if it did happen. I'm too violent for my own good, and get pretty angry when insulted or betrayed, not level headed at all. But ideally, I'd go for respect.

tik said...

So you realize that fearing you is tainted with the possibility that they don't like you, hey?
But that they will try harder to please you.

This is an exhausting game, one that leaves the other to constantly weigh whether it's worth it.

Everytime someone like me relaxes it seems an open invitation for another attack. Fear from me is not devotion to the one who issuing the fear and the game gets old. They shut down and don't respond of of pure frustration.

You'll lose part of them everytime till there is nothing left, like disconnecting the sensor that are connected between you and them.

Is it in your nature to wash away like a wave hitting a sandcastle, everything you work to establish with other's?

Remember the experiments with the rats in the mazes?
Your creating the experience of shocking them everytime they go to please you and theres a point of no return.

Instead of maintaining trust you have created fear.

You asked what my story was on the blog a few days ago, I've been careful to not give any stories and just to take information to be strong in my relationships because of the very scenario you discribed.

Self protection and preservation are my motives.

just me said...

Trying to leave a comment.

just me said...

What value does the person have to you that fears you? If it's romantic and based on fear isn't it a game not a relationship, where the expectations that you have are constantly being raised for the other to acheive?

Nothing relaxing about that, how are they suppose to know when?
Or what it is that you want.

I'm asking because I have this situation and feel on edge all the time and worse everytime I start to relax the game is switched and more is asked, usually not something pleasent for me.

Zhawq said...

Personally I do it this way:

I start out with the fear thing. That ensures - for a while - that my boundaries will be respected, and no one's foolish enough to jump at me with careful consideration first.

In the meantime I have established my position, and now the respect comes into the picture.

But there's always the two: Respect to those who can deal with it and doesn't step out of line, and fear to those who need that to motivate them. People are different, and some need it one way, others the other.

There's no one answer that works all the time, and we see testimony to the truth of this all the time.

As a leader you will never be able to relax completely, not as a respect enforcer, not as a fear enforcer. The two are different, but both represent obstacles and danger in each their particular ways - which are never the same anyway.


Notable,

I understand what you're saying. Fear can be quite intoxicating. On the other hand it can be quite annoying at times, if it comes up where it isn't needed.

Like having an 'underling' stand before you, you give him an order, a simple task for him to carry out, but he doesn't move, he just stands there, wide eyed, looking at you as if in a frozen still. THAT can annoy the hell out of me, and I've been known to smash the living daylights out of such beings, in a figure of speech.

It comes down to one thing: Picking the right people for the right jobs. And some are simply too timid to be close to someone they consider frightening. The last time this happened it was clearly an error on my part, I should've seen he couldn't take it. And so, when I react violently in these cases, it's often as much in anger towards myself for having misjudged the situation and the person.

In other situations there's no way I can decide who I'm going to have to deal with.

TheNotablePath said...

Quite so, Zhawq. Delegating tasks and responsibility to others in less than savory lines of work is partially judging someone's capabilities and tendencies from a set of impressions, and partially from observing time-earned reputation.

It drives me up the wall, to be frank, what you described. I can't understand someone who won't do something you ask unless it is a matter of defiance, be it out of pragmatism or anger, or something else. It's sort of like, what do you mean you can't do it?

Far be it from me to call anyone a coward, but morals are something that rarely crosses my mind when it comes down to business.

Zhawq said...

tik,

I understand why you do it the way you describe. It's the smart thing to do. We've already seen how little it takes for someone to get jumped by idiots, and that's sometimes all it takes.

Idiots will always be used by the smarter ones as stepping stones to an easy meal.


Just me:

"What value does the person have to you that fears you?"

It differs from individual to individual. I don't really determine people's value by the measurement of their fear. There's so much more to an individual than how much they fear you. And in regard to fear it is also about How they fear you, the flavor of their personal fear and what makes up the total of it all.


"If it's romantic and based on fear isn't it a game not a relationship"

It's totally possible to include some level/s and type/s of fear in a romantic relationship. But without the romantic affection - at least on part of one of the involved individuals - as well as some amount of respect I'd say it wouldn't be worth maintaining beyond the occasional one-night-stand or perhaps a weekly booty-call.


"where the expectations that you have are constantly being raised for the other to acheive?"

I've seen that tendency for expectations to constantly raised, but I see it in all kinds of relationships. It doesn't pertain especially to those where fear is an intricate part of it in a conscious sadistic way. Perhaps quite the contrary.

The way I do it, I shift the expectations, I don't raise them beyond a certain level, because doing that will kill the relationship, not enhance it. Shifting expectations is different, but involves the same uncertainty and alertness on the part of the one who is regulated and directed by fear.


"Nothing relaxing about that, how are they suppose to know when?
Or what it is that you want."

In these kinds of relationships relaxation is not the goal. Constant tension is, and tension can be very arousing, even to those who never thought they'd be aroused by something like fear and uncertainty. It can very interesting to watch the change that takes place in these individuals, and the journey through change is often the best part.

How are they supposed to know what and when? Well that's what the whole thing is build around. I have brought women to orgasm simply by keeping them in suspense by not knowing when the whip would be used next.

A movement of my hand, browsing softly - as if by accident - against the whip hanging by the wall at my side as I reach for a glass of wine sitting at the table right beneath it.
That was enough.

Imagine the humiliation as this happened while I had two guests in the room? I had to punish her afterwards, of course. Again another means of arousal on her part, only this time she was forced to wait, for now she knew the punishment would go beyond what she could physically take. I held her in a cage for two days and nights with only water.

But let's just leave it at this. I'm trying to explain how fear can be used as an enhancing factor, if used right. And believe it or not: It works with almost everybody! But it takes some working with them to get them where they're susceptible to the treatment, and that part can be less entertaining - at least to them. ;)


"I'm asking because I have this situation and feel on edge all the time and worse everytime I start to relax the game is switched and more is asked, usually not something pleasent for me."

I see. There are ways to handle this, whether you want out of the situation or no.

Wet said...

How can anyone fear someone whom they do not respect and how can anyone respect what they do not fear?

Anonymous said...

It is about loss. You fear what you can lose. And the object(thing you can lose) has no use when it is left to rust.

Anonymous said...

I've been fearful when I am mad. It's intense, I get it. The last time I was full blown pissed and fearful, there was almost a physical fight. The anger kept surfacing and resurfacing. The guy was loving it. I would have liked to have punched his lights out. He told me of another woman who did that. I asked why and he said she was trying to get him to respond to something, but that he wasn't buying it. I asked him what he wasn't buying. This informed me for the rest of the life of the relationship. Bing, Bang, Boom. After I scared him, he was laughing. So I "disassociated" on purpose. Packed up, said 'bye. Bing, bang, boom. Did NOT cry for him. Not worth giving him the satisfaction of that. -I learned that lesson a long time ago.

Anonymous said...

Tik said:
"Instead of maintaining trust you have created fear."

Yes. And you get a false ego boost from the person who fears you.

Anonymous said...

"And some are simply too timid to be close to someone they consider frightening."

Yes. Or people might puff up and lie to you about their strengths so someone like you will not lose respect for them.

It is important to remember that underlings can become so willing to submit and please a commanding boss (or mate) that they lose themSELVES. If that happens, you've lost what you've won.

Zhawq said...

Wet,

I think it has to do with fear being categorized as negative, so you're expected to fear those you do not respect... uh...

I agree it doesn't make much sense to me either. Apparently it also didn't make much sense to the god of the The Old Testament, as he actually states he wants people to fear him.


Anon 2:39,

Why do you think the ego boost is false just because it comes from someone who fears you? An ego boost is an ego boost is an ego boost. There're many ways to get it, fear is just one method.


Anon 2:53,

"people might puff up and lie to you about their strengths so someone like you will not lose respect for them."

Indeed. This is a very common tactic. I believe everybody uses it to some extent. But when it comes to making others fear you, you better be careful with this kind of thing. It only takes a few check ups and your whole fear inducing thunder may turn into a whimper.


"It is important to remember that underlings can become so willing to submit and please a commanding boss (or mate) that they lose themSELVES. If that happens, you've lost what you've won."

Well, it is actually the other way around, at least to people like myself. Making people loose themselves is the ultimate goal.

Yes, I know how it sounds, but I'm trying to be honest. After all, it is very often about destruction, one way or another, since destruction is the ultimate control.

We have no fear of loosing what we got from others. That is not what drives us.

Anonymous said...

I've been fearful when I am mad. It's intense, I get it. The last time I was full blown pissed and fearful, there was almost a physical fight. The anger kept surfacing and resurfacing. The guy was loving it. I would have liked to have punched his lights out. He told me of another woman who did that. I asked why and he said she was trying to get him to respond to something, but that he wasn't buying it. I asked him what he wasn't buying. This informed me for the rest of the life of the relationship. Bing, Bang, Boom. After I scared him, he was laughing. So I "disassociated" on purpose. Packed up, said 'bye. Bing, bang, boom. Did NOT cry for him. Not worth giving him the satisfaction of that. -I learned that lesson a long time ago.

Zhawq said...

Wet,

I think it has to do with fear being categorized as negative, so you're expected to fear those you do not respect... uh...

I agree it doesn't make much sense to me either. Apparently it also didn't make much sense to the god of the The Old Testament, as he actually states he wants people to fear him.


Anon 2:39,

Why do you think the ego boost is false just because it comes from someone who fears you? An ego boost is an ego boost is an ego boost. There're many ways to get it, fear is just one method.


Anon 2:53,

"people might puff up and lie to you about their strengths so someone like you will not lose respect for them."

Indeed. This is a very common tactic. I believe everybody uses it to some extent. But when it comes to making others fear you, you better be careful with this kind of thing. It only takes a few check ups and your whole fear inducing thunder may turn into a whimper.


"It is important to remember that underlings can become so willing to submit and please a commanding boss (or mate) that they lose themSELVES. If that happens, you've lost what you've won."

Well, it is actually the other way around, at least to people like myself. Making people loose themselves is the ultimate goal.

Yes, I know how it sounds, but I'm trying to be honest. After all, it is very often about destruction, one way or another, since destruction is the ultimate control.

We have no fear of loosing what we got from others. That is not what drives us.

Zhawq said...

tik,

I understand why you do it the way you describe. It's the smart thing to do. We've already seen how little it takes for someone to get jumped by idiots, and that's sometimes all it takes.

Idiots will always be used by the smarter ones as stepping stones to an easy meal.


Just me:

"What value does the person have to you that fears you?"

It differs from individual to individual. I don't really determine people's value by the measurement of their fear. There's so much more to an individual than how much they fear you. And in regard to fear it is also about How they fear you, the flavor of their personal fear and what makes up the total of it all.


"If it's romantic and based on fear isn't it a game not a relationship"

It's totally possible to include some level/s and type/s of fear in a romantic relationship. But without the romantic affection - at least on part of one of the involved individuals - as well as some amount of respect I'd say it wouldn't be worth maintaining beyond the occasional one-night-stand or perhaps a weekly booty-call.


"where the expectations that you have are constantly being raised for the other to acheive?"

I've seen that tendency for expectations to constantly raised, but I see it in all kinds of relationships. It doesn't pertain especially to those where fear is an intricate part of it in a conscious sadistic way. Perhaps quite the contrary.

The way I do it, I shift the expectations, I don't raise them beyond a certain level, because doing that will kill the relationship, not enhance it. Shifting expectations is different, but involves the same uncertainty and alertness on the part of the one who is regulated and directed by fear.


"Nothing relaxing about that, how are they suppose to know when?
Or what it is that you want."

In these kinds of relationships relaxation is not the goal. Constant tension is, and tension can be very arousing, even to those who never thought they'd be aroused by something like fear and uncertainty. It can very interesting to watch the change that takes place in these individuals, and the journey through change is often the best part.

How are they supposed to know what and when? Well that's what the whole thing is build around. I have brought women to orgasm simply by keeping them in suspense by not knowing when the whip would be used next.

A movement of my hand, browsing softly - as if by accident - against the whip hanging by the wall at my side as I reach for a glass of wine sitting at the table right beneath it.
That was enough.

Imagine the humiliation as this happened while I had two guests in the room? I had to punish her afterwards, of course. Again another means of arousal on her part, only this time she was forced to wait, for now she knew the punishment would go beyond what she could physically take. I held her in a cage for two days and nights with only water.

But let's just leave it at this. I'm trying to explain how fear can be used as an enhancing factor, if used right. And believe it or not: It works with almost everybody! But it takes some working with them to get them where they're susceptible to the treatment, and that part can be less entertaining - at least to them. ;)


"I'm asking because I have this situation and feel on edge all the time and worse everytime I start to relax the game is switched and more is asked, usually not something pleasent for me."

I see. There are ways to handle this, whether you want out of the situation or no.

tik said...

So you realize that fearing you is tainted with the possibility that they don't like you, hey?
But that they will try harder to please you.

This is an exhausting game, one that leaves the other to constantly weigh whether it's worth it.

Everytime someone like me relaxes it seems an open invitation for another attack. Fear from me is not devotion to the one who issuing the fear and the game gets old. They shut down and don't respond of of pure frustration.

You'll lose part of them everytime till there is nothing left, like disconnecting the sensor that are connected between you and them.

Is it in your nature to wash away like a wave hitting a sandcastle, everything you work to establish with other's?

Remember the experiments with the rats in the mazes?
Your creating the experience of shocking them everytime they go to please you and theres a point of no return.

Instead of maintaining trust you have created fear.

You asked what my story was on the blog a few days ago, I've been careful to not give any stories and just to take information to be strong in my relationships because of the very scenario you discribed.

Self protection and preservation are my motives.

basketcast said...

If I catch myself instilling fear into someone I really like I end up seeming phony and "all over the place"
I can't do that anymore because I want them to like me. And then I get "superficially charming." It's a fucking bore. What's more is that I look like I am lying! I'm NOT ! I'm trying to be fucking normal!

Anonymous said...

Hi!

Thanks for your blog.

You are all writing about instilling fear in others as a means to control them. But I was wondering about something:

How about your own fears? Do the people you are controlling never fight back? Would there be a way for them to scare you off? If there are even people killing themselves because of the bullying, wouldn't it be more logical for them to seek revenge on you??

And you write somewhere most psychopaths have phobias.. I am trying really hard to understand...everyone says that psychopaths are fearless.. but then they have phobias and it somehow seems as thought they are afraid to lose control? And shying away from real confrontations?

And: what would happen if 2 psychopaths fight for the same thing?

I'm not sure if you'd want to answer those questions, because it might be like showing your vulnerable sides.. but I am just really curious and trying to get my head around it.

Thanks!!

Anonymous said...

Has any psychopath come across so called enlightened persons who can't be upset and made to fear them as easily as most?

How do they see such persons? They will see them as weak obviously but do they want to hurt them or do they ignore them? Additionally, how does this opinion change if you see them as some sort of threat somehow? I mean a snake doesn't attack a stone so maybe the same thing applies (as it's a similar kind of emptiness of energy they exude).

Anonymous said...

Yes... You see, people have a misconception that fear is an emotion, a habit, a weakness, even something that can be used against you.

I for one beg to differ, fear IS respect, it is for one of the individuals who are weak minded.

It is, in fact, amazing really on what misconceptions people percive us psychopaths have.

Stereotypes have been on us, people have been identifying us with the same traits and qualities

That my friends, is true fear. To label something without knowing it's true nature, to run away without counting the cost of the action.

It's just a periculous habit that, in todays conventional and plainly stereotypical society, people cannot fix.